The Steel Guitar Forum

I am new to the Forum and haven't played for several years, but want to get back into the Pedal Steel. When I did play some years ago it was only on the E9 10 string tuning.At present I do not have a steel guitar so must purchase one. I am considering the 12 string Unviversal E9/B6 tuning to purchase and learn, as I would also like to be able to get some of the sounds of the C6. My question for those in the know is this: How difficult is it to go to the 12 string Universal tuning from the 10 string E9 tuning. I like the idea of just one neck, but with no experience in this area I would appreciate any advice on this subject. I know everyone is different and has had different experiences. Not trying to start a war as to which is better, just what your personal thoughts are. I apprecite any input that you can give.

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Hi David; I started with a D10 and found that the C6 neck was more of an armrest and the physical aspect of going from 1 neck to the other was too much to overcome. After one year of a good try with D10 I realized I should be playing an S12. I went to an S12 8/5 which took about 2 months to get used to the Universal tuning. Changing over was the right thing for me, but you will find the majority play A D10. By the way, I also changed to the Day setup which is also more comfortable to me. But, to each his own!

Hi David.
Welcome to the Forum.
I was exactly like you.(Haven't played for 20 years!!!).I had a Sho-Bud pro I (10 strings E9th)
Got my new Carter S12 Universal since june 12.It took me about two weeks getting used to "a lotta strings".It's a little confusing at first sight,but you will soon get used to it.Believe me,it's a great tuning!
Good luck.
JS
.

I too had an armrest for a long time. It looked pretty impressive but it was awful heavy. If I was starting over, I would go universal. I tried the Day setup a while back and think that is better on old ankles, but I couldn't get used to it. I'm too old to start much of anything new.

David
I started out on a S10. I played it for about 6 years. I did a lot of research and hand wringing trying to decide which way to go, D10 or S12/14. I finally decided on the S14. I recieved it on a tuesday night and played it on saturday night. Granted, I played the heck out of in every night after work, but, it wasn't that hard. I have since found that I didn't use the first and fourteenth strings and have gone to the S12. I would highly recommend the S12 E9/B6 to anyone.
Whip

Since you're coming back to playing after a couple of years, getting used to the extra two strings shouldn't be a problem. I'm with the others - go for the U12. There is a S12 7+5 Zum on Buy and Sell right now for a very reasonable price.<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Mike Selecky on 06 September 2002 at 09:31 AM.]</p></FONT>

The biggest difference is that the E9th's 9th string "D" is missing. You have to get used to getting that note with a knee lever on the U-12.

Other than that, they are pretty much the same tuning.

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<small><img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b.gif" width="64" height="64">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (F Diatonic) Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6)

David, I played a double 10 for 30+ years and decided to go to the universal after seeing Joe Wright. I have 2 12 string Guitars and would not go back to the double 10. The D string is no problem and most of the time you normally have to skip it, but with the 9th string tuned to a B you can use it all over and it also sounds great when you bring it in using the knee leverbringing it up to a D. The pedals on the 6th are the same except you are B open in place of C open. I had to move the knee levers to different legs so that took some time to forget the old moves and learn new ones. It was a month before I was fully used to the new guitar and knee levers. But I'm glad I made the switch. Now if I could pick like Joe Wright, but I could'nt play like Buddy when I had my double 10 either.

I played a D-10 for 8 yrs and switched to U-12 in 1976. Still play a Uni and have no desire to go back. It took me a few weeks to get used to it. I like the freedom of moving in and out of both tunings within a measure. Opens a few more doors for creativeness.
Dennis

Hey David,
Another option is to go to an extended E9 universal. What you do is keep the normal D string and lower it to C# with the same knee lever which lowers 4 & 8 to D#. This gives you the same thing as some C6th players are doing now where they drop the low C string and add a D between the E and C (6th & 8th) strings. You can use all the B6th changes and do some scale stuff down there without moving your bar as much. I currently tune my 9th string to C# but if I didn't I'd probably do this. This way also you can keep all your E9th grips you've been used to and use all the instruction material for that tuning with out having to alter anything.

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Livin' in the Past and the Future with a 12 string Mooney tuning.

<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Jerry Hayes on 06 September 2002 at 12:09 PM.]</p></FONT>

To keep this narrow and to your question, I agree with Richard Gonzales--it took me about two months to feel comfortable going from E9 S-10 to U-12. The first couple of weeks I despaired that it was all a mistake. If you anchor yourself by knowing that your 8th string E is the 3rd string from the bottom, well suddenly everything you always knew is wrong. Nothing but time will instill the familiarity of knowing--knowing--where that string is--5th string from the bottom. And then you know it. And life is good.

I tried E9/B6 for about 3yrs, I just could never get use to the D stg issue or feel comfortable in the lower end of the E9th side of it. I went back to my 75PP D-10 and my new SD-10 Fessenden and I'm feel "at home" again. Guess some old dogs can learn new tricks, but this dog is not one of them!
JE:-)>

I'm a U12 plaYER, I came from a d10 ShoBud, wouldn't go back, my guitar is lighter, more versitile (many will disagree with this, but they are D10 players who for the most part never made the commitment to the Universal way of life)

My Opinion - S13 - Extended E9th-10+3
<center>(G#, E, B on bottom)</center>

Don't sacrifice the 9th string/D -
Easier to spot string groupings -
Just makes more sense -


2pT


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TheEarlyDays.com

and appearing regularly...
Jimmy Crawford/Russ Hicks... and Buddy Emmons on Bass! aLotOfSpace.com


<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Terry Wendt on 16 September 2002 at 01:28 AM.]</p></FONT>

Thanks to everyone for replying to my posting. Some more information to chew on for awhile. Good stuff. By the way, Richard mentioned something about a "Day" setting. Not sure what this is. Sorry for my ignorance, but need some help here. Some variations on tunings also, E9 Extended and a U-13 tuning. Will have to look at those further also. Again, many thanks!

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David- There are two ways for the first 3 pedals on E9, the Emmons setup A-B-C and the Day setup reversed C-B-A.

Most of the tab and lesson material available to you will be the Emmons setup. Also most of it still is for S10 or D10 tuned guitars. The single 12 Universal E9/B6 is not near as popular but gaining all the time. If you need any help, Clik on my Email.Good luck...al

David:

Except for missing the D string, which you can get on the Universal with a knee lever, you will not have any problem going from E9 to Universal, at least I didn't. For me, I started out with a D-10...why?...because all the top pros had this so like lots of others, I figured this was the way to go. And it is for them, no doubt. I then went to a B6/E9 universal and for me this was a huge move in the right direction. I could still play all the E9th stuff and the 6th sound was right there if and when I needed it. So, the Universal is a great way to go, in my opinion unless you are primarily a 6th player, then you might want to stick with a D-10. I play E9th almost exclusively. The stuff that plays in my area are country, gospel, and a little fifties or country rock. This is what all bands I have played in have done for the last 30 years. So, now I have made another decision, being realistic. I have been playing steel for 32 years and am 57 years old. I am still waiting for the time to learn the 6th tuning well so I can play like the pros. It "ain't" gonna happen! I don't have the desire anymore to learn a 2nd tuning, although I like to listen to others play it. Also, on occasion, there is a song that comes along that screams for C6th. It is not worth the effort in learning the tuning just for an occasional song, at least for me. I can fake my way throught it on the E9. So, what I am leading up to, is that I am in the process of going to an extended E9 on my U12. For me, it just makes good sense. It is the ultimate country, gospel, country rock/fifties tuning in my opinion. You really need to take a hard look at what you want to play and being realistic, what you will actually be playing in your area. Then, you can decide what will work for you. Lloyd Green,Jay Dee Maness, and other top pros have decided that E9 was all they needed and it certainly was the right decision for them. Do a search under EXTENDED E9 in this category if you would like to learn more about the Extended E9 tuning.

The previous post brings up some very good points. If you're just starting out or have played for a while and never played much C6, I think either the Universal or Extended E9 are excellant choices.

In my case I was lucky enough to find a used D-12 early in my playing career. At the time most bands were only three or four pieces and I was the only lead player. Having the same low range as a six string guitar on the extended E9 helped me cover record licks much easier and got me more jobs. The extra chromatic strings on my extended C6 allows me to have both a D and G on top.

Recently Jerry Fessenden kindly built a 12 string and a 13 string set up to a combination of Extended/Universal E9/B6 for me to experiment with. I really tried to get all of my playing styles on the one neck, but for me, it didn't work. He's now in the process of building me a D-12 Fessy.

The issues for me, which may or may not apply to newer players are:

It's hard for me to remember to play one fret higher than C6 plus I either lose my open string licks or have to play songs in a weird key.

Having to hold a knee lever to play the 6th tuning cramps my style and limits my accessibility to other knee levers. (In my opinion, a locking knee lever defeats the whole purpose of a universal tuning.)

Getting my "necessary" knee levers from both necks onto one led to compromises I wasn't willing to make.

I use the D string a lot on E9, both open and lowered, but using it at C# as the second scale tone on B6 interfered with my string grips and strums too much. Using a knee lever to get the D note on a universal also limits my access to other knee levers.

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Jim Smith jimsmith94@attbi.com
-=Dekley D-12 10&12=-
-=Fessenden Ext. E9/U-13 8&8=-

I find that the U12 does not work for me. I started on E9 then went to a U12. After 5 years of U12 I tried out a D10 and found that it worked much better for me. In my personal experience I feel the the reason more pro players have not gone with the U12 is more because of its limitations and deficiencies that tradition or habit. Before you make a decision find some steel players that can show you the different tunings in person so you can make an informed choice.

Whatever you choose have fun playing !

Bob

I would like to point out that if you have a locking device to lock in B6. Then it is just like going to the bottom neck of a D10.

So if you want the S12 but play it like a D10. Then use the locking device.

Incidently , why waste a knee lever on the locking device? It could just be another crossrod with the two pulls. Builders note!
....al

Reading your stated playing goals in the original post (ie. played S10 E9th some years ago, like the idea of one neck, would like to play some 6th stuff), I'd say you are a perfect candidate for S12U.

I agree with the majority (if not all) above:
go for the E9B6 Universal, you won't regret it. You can not only play E9 and B6 , but also more because of the combination on one set of strings ! I made the switch about 14 years ago, after playing E9 only for about 6 years. Like others, it took me maybe 2 months to get used to it. The major difficulty for me was the switch from the Emmons to the Day set-up. The rest is easy, including getting the D with a knee lever instead of the 9th string.
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Zumsteel S12U

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Consider this; it is a lot easier to take two strings off, than to add two. If you go with the S-12 and have a problem adjusting to the two extra strings,take them off! Then, after you have gotten more used to the feel of the instrument, add one, play it for awhile then add another. It worked for me.
Good Luck!
W.C.