How Stiff Should P/P Pedals Be?

Bob Snelgrove · Post by **Bob Snelgrove** » 29 Aug 2002 4:03 pm

As you may know, I have fallen in love again with my '78 Crawford-built D-10.

I have been playing a Franklin for the last 6 or 7 years and obviously it's a great guitar.

The extra resistance in the Emmons on slow stuff is a "good thing" for that extra squeezing, but on faster stuff or pedal hammers, it does seem harder to play.

I thought I had read long ago that a P/P set up properly should play as smooth as an all pull guitar? Don't get me wrong, I'm lovin' the tone so much that sacrifices are in order

The only other problem is that a few knee levers are hard to get to. (I don't play perpendicular to the guitar any more, but at an angle towards the tuning keys) The LKL is out of reach and hopefully could be moved in?

thx

bob

Jeff Peterson · Post by **Jeff Peterson** » 29 Aug 2002 4:17 pm

Your p/p can be adjusted any way you want it. It can also have action as good or better than any all-pull made. It just takes a knowledgeable mechanic...someone who won't fill it up with 'custom'(read 'homemade') parts...and will take the time with the instrument to make it right. You're right about the tone......but there is no reason why it can't be your best playing/feeling guitar also.

Jon Light · Post by **Jon Light** » 29 Aug 2002 4:19 pm

I've never played a Franklin so I've got no common ground to quantify this with. I'm brand new to the p/p experience. I was quite surprised at the ease of pedal touch. Side by side with my Carter, the touch is very similar. I believe it would read very close with any kind of measuring instrument. The Carter is of course more mechanically tight feeling. I might mention that I have the Carter set up so that you can feel the pedals. I don't like feather-light action. But it's not so stiff that I couldn't play barefoot if I chose. I expected the p/p to feel like the clutch pedal on an old pickup. Nice surprise.

I also would like to move my LKL. In my case it's too close to the back apron. I wish I could just slide the lever assembly over on its shaft but the set screw runs clear thru the shaft so I'll have to build a wing extention for the lever bar or something.

David Mullis · Post by **David Mullis** » 29 Aug 2002 4:20 pm

The pedals shouldn't be stiff at all. As a matter of fact, on my 71 the A pedal is almost too easy, if that makes sense. The pedals on my 82 have a little more resistance but are not hard to push or stiff my any means. Your LKL could probably be adjusted or moved without too much trouble.

John Steele · Post by **John Steele** » 29 Aug 2002 5:59 pm

If you can't tap your feet on the pedals when you're playing swing tunes, then it's too stiff.
-John
 Yes, I'm kidding. sorta.

Bob Snelgrove · Post by **Bob Snelgrove** » 29 Aug 2002 6:06 pm

Thanks, Guys

Can't tap my feet, that's for sure. I can on my Franklin and Mullen but I thought that was the difference between P/P's and all P's.

BTW, this has the (in)famous "Crawford Cluster" (2lkl/s, 2 lkr's,etc) 10 knees, 9 floor if that explains it being on the stiff side?

thx

bob

John Lacey · Post by **John Lacey** » 30 Aug 2002 3:03 am

For me, the feel of the P/P mostly is determined by the positioning of the barrel to the swivel, or bellcrank. If it's too stiff, you have to back off the barrel til the stiffness goes, althought that might mean giving the knee or pedal more travel to compensate.

J Fletcher · Post by **J Fletcher** » 30 Aug 2002 4:28 am

John, can you elaborate a bit on your remark regarding positioning the "barrel".
I have an '84 push-pull, and the pedal action is way stiffer than on my '80 or so LeGrande. I've followed your excellent on-line set up manual for push-pulls, and the action is much better than it was when I bought it a year ago, but I'd like it to be a bit less stiff.
Does anybody have any advice on how to optimize this mechanism, other than ship it off to a push-pull mechanic?
I'd be curious as to where other players have the pull rod connected to the fingers. For instance I pull the 3rd string finger up on the hole closest to the changer, and the 6th string is pulled from the hole closest to the floor. Thanks to Herb Steiner's advice.
From hearing other players comment on the playability of their push-pulls, I know mine can be improved. Maybe it's in the springs that absorb the excess travel?....Jerry

Bill Moore · Post by **Bill Moore** » 30 Aug 2002 4:37 am

Comparing my 80's P/P to my 2000 Carter U12, I find them to be pretty similar. One big difference I have noticed, is when playing the 1/2A pedal, the Carter has very little travel, making it a bit touchy getting that note. The Emmons has more travel, it's easier to hit it. I like them both.

Bob Snelgrove · Post by **Bob Snelgrove** » 30 Aug 2002 6:24 am

What determines the pedal tension on a raise? Is it only the string tension?

thx

bob

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 30 Aug 2002 6:24 am

Bill,
I'll bet you could adjust that Carter to have exactly the same length of travel on the A pedal as your push-pull. If you want to lengthen the throw you should try connecting the pull rod closer to the end of the bellcrank.

Bob S,
There's more to it than just the string tension, because it is a machine with mechanical efficiency/advantage and mechanical drag/friction to consider. As you may know, you have a lot of leverage options on both guitars. On the push-pull you do it with shock springs, etc. On the all-pull you do it with the position on the bellcrank and, to an extent, at the changer. You can go from shorter/stiffer action to longer/easier action by going from the bellcrank position closest to the body to the one at the end of the bellcrank. Most all-pull players seem to prefer the shorter throw and slightly stiffer feel -- may be better for speedpicking. All-pull players seem to also prefer to use the tunable split with the B to Bb lever to get the C rather than half-pedaling the A pedal.

My push-pull feels as good as any steel I have ever owned. Can be played without shoes with no problem. While it's true that the more stuff you add (I just sold a D-10 with 9x9) the more difficult it is (or impossible) to get easy action, I believe they hold their own in the playability dept. if they're properly adjusted.

Hope this helps some.

------------------
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 30 August 2002 at 07:39 AM.]

Steve Stallings · Post by **Steve Stallings** » 30 Aug 2002 6:34 am

I've never played a push pull that had action as good as either the Mullen or Zum guitars. I have four guitars. In order of ease of action they are as follows:
Stiffest..... Both Emmons Legrands,
then the Remington, and finally the Mullen, which is butter smooth. I like all of these guitars, but I just thought it was common knowledge that all Emmons, including PP were a little stiff. The only guitar I've ever played which had comparable pedal action to the Mullen was my Zum. When I played Carter for two years, I thought they were about the same as the Emmons, and actually had a little problem at first going from a Mullen to the Carter.

Now.... Having said all of this, let me point out. It is not bad to be a little stiffer in regards to pedal action... just different.

------------------
Steve Stallings
Bremond, Texas
Emmmons/Mullen/Remington
Evans

Bob Snelgrove · Post by **Bob Snelgrove** » 30 Aug 2002 6:41 am

So if there is no string on it (string 5), the pedal doesn't just drop to the floor like on an all pull? Sorry, my p/p isn't here.

Does Bobbe's video cover this kind of stuff?

bob

Glenn Austin · Post by **Glenn Austin** » 30 Aug 2002 6:47 am

Bob, If your LKL is to far to the left and you're having a hard time getting your knee over there, one thing you can do is to get a longer screwthread for the knee lever angle adjustment. This will allow it to be angled in more. You can get that at home depot.

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 30 Aug 2002 6:52 am

The string tension holds the changer in the 'balanced' or 'rest' position, as set by the bottom adjustment screws at the endplate. With no strings everything will just flop. (was that your question?)

Bobbe's video is excellent, but I don't recall whether he addresses this specific issue. Plus, he sells a book called something like 'Theory and Practice in Pedal Steel Guitar' (STRANGE title -- I believe that's it) that provides a lot of specific info. (e.g., what length shock springs for all standard D-10 pulls). It is essentially a push-pull shop manual. I recommend it. It starts with a fully stripped undercarriage and builds a complete D-10 setup, step by step.

------------------
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 30 August 2002 at 07:54 AM.]

Bob Snelgrove · Post by **Bob Snelgrove** » 30 Aug 2002 7:16 am

Glenn

Actually it's to far towards the front of the guitar. I need to move it back towards the apron.

thx

bob

Mark Herrick · Post by **Mark Herrick** » 30 Aug 2002 8:15 am

Knee lever angle adjustment screw?????

I just looked at my '81/'82 P/P (we're not sure exactly which year it is!) and there is only one angle adjustment screw on any of the knee levers and it is on one of the two levers for the C6 neck. My Mullen has these adjustment screws on all the levers.

I'm trying to get used to the pedal feel of the P/P as compared to my Mullen SD-10. As Steve has pointed out, the Mullen is very easy and smooth. The P/P is considerably more stiff (by comparison). I have also noticed that the Emmons pedals (these are the LeGrande style pedals) are 1/2" shorter in length than the Mullen pedals. I think this affects the leverage on the pedal and therefore the "stiffness." (I'm also getting the toe of my shoe tangled up in the pedal rods!)

I'm hoping this P/P business is just something that takes time to get used to, it's certainly an impressive looking mechanism and a nice looking guitar...

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 30 Aug 2002 9:20 am

My '69 push-pull doesn't have angle adjustments, but it would be nice.

I've often though about installing a set screw, like several brands use, through the vertical part of the lever itself, at the pivot point. All you'd have to do is drill and tap a piece of aluminum bar and add a set screw that changes the angle.

Bob,
To move the lever closer to the front of the guitar, just cut off the cross shaft to the proper length to get the position (front to back) you need. I'm sure a machine shop could drill the holes in those hard cross shafts, but I'd opt for putting in a shorter one or cutting that one off.
------------------
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 30 August 2002 at 10:26 AM.]

John Lacey · Post by **John Lacey** » 31 Aug 2002 6:35 am

"What determines the pedal tension on a raise? Is it only the string tension?"
String tension, spring tension of the pedal return spring and closeness of the barrel to the bellcrank affects pedal tension. Simple experimentation with barrel position should determine it's optimum feel. It takes some time in a trial and error situation.

Bob Snelgrove · Post by **Bob Snelgrove** » 31 Aug 2002 9:28 pm

"the feel of the P/P mostly is determined by the positioning of the barrel to the swivel, or bellcrank."

John,

Not quite sure what you mean here. My guitar is home so at least I can look

thx

bob

George Duncan Sypert · Post by **George Duncan Sypert** » 31 Aug 2002 9:52 pm

For what it's worth which is probably nothing I play my p/p barefooted here at the house both on E9th & C6th. I set mine up myself as I had to remove the changers once upon a time to clean them up and stop binding. The one I play out is a little stiffer but not much. I overhauled it too.

Bruce Hamilton · Post by **Bruce Hamilton** » 1 Sep 2002 7:35 pm

Usually stiffness can be attributed to a couple of things. The hole that is chosen on the changer finger for the raise hook and rod can vary the stiffness. Also whether the raises and lowers on a pedal all complete their travel at precisely the same time. If they don't they fight with each other and ultimately make the pedal stiff. Both of these issues are covered on John's page if I remember right.

Bob Snelgrove · Post by **Bob Snelgrove** » 1 Sep 2002 8:22 pm

Larry

Why would a more complex setup make it harder to play? I think that could be *part* of my problem, (10/9) but I don't want to remove any unused hardware for fear of changing the tone

bob

[This message was edited by Bob Snelgrove on 01 September 2002 at 09:47 PM.][This message was edited by Bob Snelgrove on 01 September 2002 at 09:47 PM.]

Dan Tyack · Post by **Dan Tyack** » 1 Sep 2002 9:21 pm

I don't believe that you can get an Emmons pp guitar to have any where the feel of a Franklin, from my experience with these guitars. But then again, the work on my Emmons guitars was done by Jimmy Crawford, so maybe I should have found a better mechanic

.

The significant feature of the Franklin is short pedal travel combined with low pedal resistance.

John Lacey · Post by **John Lacey** » 2 Sep 2002 8:02 am

I'll sure agree with you there, Dan. It's really like apples and oranges. I have a friend with a 20 yr. old Franklin, forumite Greg Derksen, and it's got a distinctive feel and travel. Actually, one of my favorite pedal feels was on my short keyhead Legrande, somewhere between the Franklin and a P/P in feel. I also prefer the Franklin travel and feel for the C6th. but it's virtually impossible to imitate with a P/P due to the leverages. Bruce also brought up a couple of very good points, the hole choice on the changer for the raises and the matter of having a raise and a lower on the same pedal achieve it's end point at the same time. These are a lot of factors to work smoothly together and hence the extra time taken to balance out a P/P. On the positive side, once it's set well, tighten 'er down and leave it. If you get it done by a P/P mechanic, take photos of the underneath and take note as to what they did. [This message was edited by John Lacey on 02 September 2002 at 09:10 AM.]