The Steel Guitar Forum

Ok the Teacher part in me warrants explaination in this quest for Tone and Technique with the hands to achieve that sound/tone.
Let us all try and explain; for all those needing/wanting help in the actual physical mechanics of playing this darn thing.
I'll start with one of my pickin' hand explainations; and one of my Bar hand explainations; from the "Ricky's Pro Talk" section of www.mightyfinemusic.com

(question)
When I pick the strings, I don't get a good sound. I think my right-hand position might be bad. Any suggestions?
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Hand position is very important in the way that you strike the string, what I like to call "setting the string in motion". The way the string vibrates really determines the sound you get. The way I explain "setting the string in motion" is to know that the string can move horizontally or vertically or somewhere inbetween.

To get the purest sound of the string that is vibrating over the pickup, you want to move the string as horizontally as you can. So, in essence, you are trying to move your pick(s) straight through the string by pulling it towards you with your finger(s), or pushing the string away from you with your thumb. The pick should push the string straight (horizontally) and eventually come upward off the string. That is the motion you are trying to create (horizontal picking). What you don't want is for the pick to attack the string at an angle (non-horizontally).

The correct postion of your your hand and fingers can set you up to create the correct motion easier. A general rule for the hand postion is for the fingers to be curled like the "letter C" and the thumb sticking out straight down the strings away from the fingers. The fingers should be curled somewhat but the biggest mistake I see in my students, is that the finger tips are too far curled under the middle joint of that finger. Try to keep the finger tips on top of the middle joint, but without going behind it. The more you can keep the finger tips out in front of the finger joint, the easier it will be to move the string horizontally. Also it puts your hand and fingers more in a natural postion with less tension on your joints and then you are able to move the fingers more fluidly and get the sound you so desire.
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-- Ricky Davis

(question)
I can't seem to get a natural sounding vibrato and after awhile of trying, my hand and arm really hurt. Any suggestions?
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A good vibrato is something that is smooth and pleasing to the ear. If the vibrato is tense or shaky sounding then that is most likely what is causing the suffering in your hand and arm. A good practice for vibrato is to position your bar over a fret and play a note or chord. Then, after the note(s) start sounding, slowly roll the bar just in front of the fret and just behind the fret. What you are creating is a smooth roll of the bar on the strings.

The bar should not slide on the strings. And however much you roll the bar in front of the fret, that's how much you should roll the bar behind the fret for perfect intonation. The hand, wrist, and arm move together to roll the bar. So just like a singer, sing the note first, then slowly bring the vibrato in for the effect and texture of the note. This should always sound like smooth waves and never shaky or jittery.
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-- Ricky Davis
<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Ricky Davis on 24 August 2002 at 10:24 AM.]</p></FONT>

Ricky,
On the vibrato issue Joe Wright showed me an amazing thing that helped me quite a bit. Pick one string at the first fret and VERY VERY slowly slide up and back 1 fret then 2 frets then 3 fret all the way up the neck and back. I'm talking REAL SLOW. This is a way to find tension in your shoulders, arm and hands that you will bump into on different places on the neck. Once you find the tension its an easy step to let it go.

Bob<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Bob Hoffnar on 24 August 2002 at 12:43 PM.]</p></FONT>

I'll second the Joe Wright exercises. I believe he also points out that when moving the bar up or down the strings you should always be pushing the bar, not pulling in the downward direction. In other words, the force to move the bar should always be applied from behind the bar relative to the direction you are going.

Here's a diagram:
http://members.aol.com/mherrcat/misc/barforce.html

Flaws in technique (either right or left hand) often cause cramping. Anytime you're getting cramps or soreness (unless you have some physiological problem like poor circulation, or arthritis), you're "forcing" something. The playing movements should be smooth, light, and flowing. They should be as natural as signing your name. Excess "tightness", or strange or awkward angles are usually the culprit if you're having problems. Assuming you have no physical problems, and you're experiencing cramping from your vibrato technique, you're holding your bar too tight, or wrong, or you're doing an exaggerated movement that really isn't necessary.

Firstly, the vibrato isn't done all the time. It's done on long notes, or at the end of a phrase where you want the effect, and the added sustain that it offers. On most up-tempo stuff, it's not necessary or needed. (Some players will do it occasionally on fast stuff just for the "warble" effect.)

Secondly, the actual bar movement for good vibrato is usually quite limited, and consists of nothing more than a gentle "rolling motion" that should be quite easy for you to maintain for <u>long periods</u>...longer than you might ever require.

Good technique takes time to build, and these skills can take quite a while for some players to master. Nevertheless, as in most things, too little is better and safer than too much. I would rather hear no vibrato, than I would to hear an exaggerated, or "forced" vibrato.

Learning to play in a comfortable "relaxed" manner (no, I'm not talking about your back posture!) will allow you to play endless hours without experiencing the cramping, soreness, or the tiring that can come with tense, tight muscles, and forced or un-natural movements.

I can tell how nervous I am by the sound of my tone. The more comfortable I am, the better my tone is and the more lyrical my vibrato is.

The position of the right hand relative to the pickup is important as well. You can experiment by moving it further left of the pickup and notice how the tone "colors". Sometimes at different times thoughout a song, I'll move my right hand to different positions for different types of sounds. For instance, if I want to get a quick, down and dirty Mooney sound in ride, I'll sit to the right of the pickup, so my picks are striking on top of the pickup.

"The bar should not slide on the strings"

Ricky, I would respectfully submit that this is not neccessarily a bad technique. It produces a different sound than rolling the bar, but it can be used to great effect. I think a lot of the time I do it this way. I would be interested to hear about other players who use this technique. I believe John Hughey slides the bar instead of rolling it....<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Tommy Detamore on 26 August 2002 at 12:24 PM.]</p></FONT>

Great post! Now we're really gettin' somewhere! Instead of my steel's better'n your steel! Way to go, guys!!<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Doug Seymour on 26 August 2002 at 12:57 PM.]</p></FONT>

was I seeing double there for a minute??
OOPS!!<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Doug Seymour on 26 August 2002 at 12:59 PM.]</p></FONT>

When it comes to vibrato I use both "rolling" and "sliding" it depends on what I want to "say".

Dag

Ricky; I went to your site and watched that video for the first time and several more runs through it.

I don't know if I want to admit this or not but I have never blocked correctly from day one. I took some solace from a post by Al Marcus where he said some of us old guys were taught to block by raising the bar off the strings. I sure hope it was Al and not someone else but watching you play showed me that you do some of the things I do for blocking. So I don't feel like the Lone Ranger any more.

Your second or third demo was a fast roll in G and I noticed you pulling the bar to the rear or lower strings and allowing the finger(s) behind the bar to block the string you just pulled off. I have always done that but only because I only wanted to block that one string and nothing else. You are the first big time player I've seen do that.

In another demo ( I think it was Fixin' To Have A Breakdown...) you did some hammer on and hammer offs and that looks like the way I play all the time. That's how I block....
When I began, I remembered how I had seen dobro players do this all the time on open string runs. You may even recall the run Jerry Byrd used in his version of SGR where he plays an E scale up the neck against the open E note on his first string. The blocking was all in the hammer on and offs. I also talked myself into thinking, my right hand has enough to do as it is and I transferred the blocking load to my left hand. It just made sense to me back then...

Now I cannot undo it !! I have played this way for 30 some years and can't do it any other way. Tom Bradshaw asked me to write an article on Blocking but I couldn't do it because I couldn't do it.

I tried hard to imitate chime runs off fret and make myself learn blocking that way but it was a useless effort. My playing all over the fretboard looks like your hammer on and off technique. Playing Folsom Prison in this manner can be a very tiring song because each note I play on my low end of an XE9th tuning is a hammer on and off working three strings at open and frets 5 & 7 and muting the strings at the changer with my right palm for that old JC effect.

That 9.5oz bar feels like a Nine Pound Hammer when it's over. So wadda ya think !
Am I some kind of PSG weirdo or not ??

Regards, Paul <FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Paul Graupp on 26 August 2002 at 02:51 PM.]</p></FONT>

Tommy, and Dag I was glad to see your posts,especially the comment about about John Hughey sliding rather than rolling his bar.

The last couple of times I have watched Hughey I noticed(at least every time I was looking at the left hand) that he was sliding his bar instead of rolling it.

Having started out playing on an old Stella guitar with a nut on it,I was taught to slide the bar for color and sustain. This is understandable at my age because all I had was a flat bar with a slightly rolled edge on it. Where are you Bobby Koeffer?

Gives me goose bumps even now when I think about that old rusty bar scratching on those old rusty strings. Those old Black Diamonds were just too expensive to be changing out strings any more often than ever five years or so.

Then we really got uptown. I got a Stevens bar. With a good smooth bar you never had to change strings until you cut grooves in the bar and it cut your strings.Then back to goose bumps.

Whoops,sorry Ricky for getting to far off topic.You just stirred a lot of memories. <FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by louie hallford on 26 August 2002 at 06:40 PM.]</p></FONT><FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by louie hallford on 26 August 2002 at 06:41 PM.]</p></FONT>

Oh man these are all great great comments/instruction and insights. To me this is the Steel Guitar Forum....at it's best....awesome!!!
Tommy I agree that technique of vibrato in sliding the bar gives super effect and can be so emotional sounding(true hawaiian players play this way all the time)......BUT.....John Hughey has advanced to that technique first from proper bar rolling technique....
Which I belive to be the first important technique to learn when you want to achieve vibrato.....just like proper pickin' techniques....then the imbelishments and furthering of the techiques....come later....and are just as important to me. But baking the cake before the icing is my route.....
By the way.....Tommy Detamore has extreamly great technique in both hands.....now If I can just get him to look up when he plays ....we'll be onto something......ah...ha.
Ricky<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Ricky Davis on 27 August 2002 at 12:25 AM.]</p></FONT>

But if I look up when I play then I see guys like you sitting there and all of a sudden I want to run out the back....And Redd's already holding the door open for me anyhow

Tommy Detamore; you my friend are too funny......ha....but really I'm just jokin' and you can look anywhere you want as long as you keep playing that awesome steel guitar stuff you do all too well.
Ricky

I can sure relate to Louie Hallfords post, flat bar, Stephens bar with string grooves and Black Diamond strings. I never knew the proper vibrato was achieved with a roll until I got a Jeff Newman tape. Of course my introduction to steel guitar was by teacher, none of which I found out later ever played steel guitar. One was a university music professor, one was a barroom piano player, the third one was a lead guitar player. They all had an understanding of how a steel was played but none actually played. They all advertised themselves at steel guitar instructors. My fourth teacher was actually a steel player. Unfortunately, he was a paraplegic and when pedals came along he was unable to make the transition. Of course this was eons ago. Are things better today, or do we still have new players being taught by non-steel playing teachers?? I thank the good Lord for all the good teaching material available today and the fine folks on this forum willing to help out.

Ricky and other 'old hands' - question regarding left hand technique...I find on the upper fret board that sometimes my fingers are not resting on the strings unless I consciously relax my hands. The result is hearing overtones from unmuted strings....is there a good exercise to work on this difficulty? I have tried adjusting my seat height to see if my arm position improves my sound. Will also try the exercise mentioned by Bob.....golden thread.<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by William Steward on 28 August 2002 at 05:21 AM.]</p></FONT>

I got my right hand into the proper blocking position by going across the strings from strings 10 to 1 and back, alternating between the thumb and one finger while keeping the strings muted continuously with the back (bottom) of the palm. The back of the hand will then be forced to have a 45 degree position as Jeff Newman describes. This forces the finger and thumb to do the work instead of the whole hand bouncing up and down. You get a "thunk" sound on all the strings doing this. When you get your speed up going back and forth on the strings then you raise the back of the hand slighly to play the string and dropping it slightly to mute before picking the next string. I have watched the players with good tone and they hardly move their right hand up and down more than about 1/8 of an inch. Sometimes, they are so close to the strings that you would think they are brushing the strings with the back of their palms as they play. Most of the work should be done with the fingers and thumb. The fingers have less mass than the whole hand and arm so it takes less energy to move the fingers; consequently, you don't tire qickly. I also don't rest my arm on the neck of the guitar and I don't anchor any finger(s). Just my opinion.

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OK...let's go back to the left hand...I have a psychological problem that really messes things up for me. No, I'm not mentally ill! (But then again, don't all mentally ill folks think that?) Anyway, I find that when there is no pressure as during a private practice session, I can play things that amaze me..."Wow! Did I really do that!" kind of stuff. Then when I actually get to play with a band, my fingers get so thumb-tied I can't do anything close. So I muddle through with the same level of expertise I had before I practiced!
Seriously, any suggestions? And please, I know, "Practice! Practice!". That's not working...I "master" something (If anyone actually can) during the practice and figure I'm ready, only to blow it when it counts.
So...as I said...it's all in the mind! Where's my shrink when I need him...?- Roger

Roger--your 'left hand' problem sounds a bit more straightforward than mine! I am hoping for some tips to help keep my damned fingers on the strings. I can offer something on the 'mental' side of playing based on my experience with jazz piano. I have been going to Interplay jazz seminar every summer in New Hampshire where among other things they teach concentration techniques using hatha yoga. Deeep breathing, meditation and relaxation techniques as a more effective alternative to drugs, booze etc. to get the brain calmed down so you can concentrate when performing. It worked for me - the first time performed in front of a bunch of college professors and students I froze solid but gradually started applying the techniques and it works! I found it good to avoid coffee before I play in a potentially stressful situation. Kenny Werner wrote a good book called "Effortless Mastery" which comes with a CD of 'meditation' excercises. Your wife may start to worry about you sitting with your eyes closed but it is great stuff....after all as George Strait says, "...trans-cen-den-tal meditation I go there each night...". Sounds like your left hand is working better than mine.

Ricky---great online video....I watched your left hand positions as closely as my puny little screen would allow. You seem to do most of your left hand muting with fingers 3 and 4. Your left pinky looks like it is off the strings a lot of the time.

Paul-Yes, we did block with the bar hand in certain cases.

Another thing we did, which players don't hardly ever do, is pick up the bar completely.

When we did that Speedy West, Jody Carver, Alvino Rey stuff slapping the bar down and hitting those frets right on the money going right up the fretboard, you have to pick up the bar.

Left hand technique is pretty important too.

As Ricky explained so well, we did both vibratos, Roll and slide. It all depends on the tune and tempo. All the old-timers did this a long , long time ago.....al

William> thanks for the nice words on the Video...didn't think anyone watches that anymore
Yes I always try to keep both fingers behind the forefinger and on the strings behind the bar>I have no idea what the pinky is doing....probably dancing to his own song...ha.
Here is something you might want to work on if your fingers are coming up.
Try and approach the bar from the side to where you can really only see the two first knuckles (well when your up high on the frets)....but yes you will see the other knuckles but think about not letting all the knuckles point straight up in the air.
You want them to be pointing back towards the tuning keys as much as possible.
Try that mess and see if that don't keep your fingers down when you go high on the frets.
Also if your bar hand is crossing over too much in front of your chest....that will create some probs.....I actually try and sit at an angle so that my chest is pointing left of center...and if I go really high....I try and move my upper body more to the right...so that I don't get the hand/arm too far akwardly across my chest.
Have fun.

Ricky

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No, you're implying (as stated elsewhere) that 'rolling' is the PROPER vibrato technique. By implication the 'sliding' vibrato is IMPROPER.

Between tuning and vibrato, I wonder if there's anything about playing steel we could agree on (other than that we both enjoy it).

I agree that beginners should have some sort of benchmark regarding 'good' technique, but it's misleading to let them believe that one is 'proper' and the other is not.

It would be too easy to fall into Jeff Newman style arrogance regarding the universality of your individual preference; which is, after all, just a preference.

Hey Marty I hear ya....and good point.
I'm not familiar with Jeff Newman style teaching....so I don't know what your talking about there.
However; I respect the opinion about "Proper Technique" is somewhat misleading.....as I do alot of different techniques in my playing and I guess don't really particularly think one is more proper than the other.....so I agree It is misleading. From a Teaching stand point.......if I had a student wanting to learn vibrato.....I would teach the basics of rolling the bar first....then move to the other techniques.....as I've seen first hand that a student sliding the bar first and then trying to learn rolling the bar; is a very difficult task for me to teach....as visa versa is so much easier from the teaching standpoint.
Marty if all we EVER agree on is that we both like playing the steel.....I'm perfectly content with that my brother.
I do love exploring all techniques the steel has to offer.....and this is what I teach my students; and not particularly that one is more proper than the other, but simply the process of steps to go about it...is what I'm about.
Ricky