The Steel Guitar Forum

OK, well its not that easy but its not that hard either. I'm no big deal as a steel player and I'm no theory genius but I play with real deal full time NYC jazz players a couple times a week. It's the same as country music. You start out simple and work your way up. If steel players thought that they had to be able to play "Look at Us" like John Hughey or "She's a Waitress" like Paul Franklin in order to get a country gig or just have some fun playing with other guys there would be no new country steel players !

I see plenty of steel players with fantastic chops and ears that would be killing jazz players if they tried it. The excuse seems to be that they don't understand all that complex math stuff. I'll tell you guys a little secret that I know from
MY OWN PERSONAL DIRECT EXPERIENCE: there are plenty of great working jazz players that don't care or know about all that stuff. You get out in the trenches at the clubs and jams and its basicly anything goes. You can play or not. If learning about chord forms in an academic way helps you then by all means do it. I'm all for whatever works.

I want to add that playing gigs with standard jazz forms has improved my overall playing more than anything I have ever done. I may not be very good but I'm a heck of allot better than I was !

have fun, Bob<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Bob Hoffnar on 21 August 2002 at 10:18 AM.]</p></FONT>

Right on Bob! I couldn't agree with you more!
I suppose the first criteria would be that you really like jazz.(I'm sure there's a few here who don't) I myself love it!

Lately I've found somthing that I think works for me...
I've been taking my little 6 string Dickerson lap steel out to jazz & blues jams. It's so cute & unobtrusive that it doesnt freak anybody out. I've found it ALOT easier to just plug into somebody elses amp and get the players on my side before they have a chance to cop an attitude as I'm setting up my intrusively large pedal steel rig. Outside of B3's, I've found most real jazz players have an "anti contraption" ego problem.

I've got it tuned to my C6 "home row" ...inside 6 strings, Am7 (A C E G A C). I can simply raise the low A to Bb to make a C13 for more dom/blues sounding stuff. That's kind of where I begin as I'm reading through Real Book heads on my pedal C6 anyway.

I'm trying to approach it more like a Toot's T., Stephan G. /single line player, cuz I don't want to turn anybody off with potentially inappropriate harmonies.(slants etc.) I'll show them the unreal chord capablities later on when I feel like the moment's right to bring in my pedal guitar.

Bob, YOU ARE DA MAN!!

Right on Rick. If you don't like it you won't play it. I have always Liked jazz and what we used to call Modern, and it has been very good for me over the years.

Yes Bob, glad you prought up this post. you made some good points. Jazz playing is easy, once you get your feet wet. I find Good country harder for me to play!

I was lucky to play with a lot of fine Jazz musicians and learned plenty , so get into those jam sessions and try it out.

They will hold their nose when you bring in that Steel Guitar. They did that too me at first. But if you can cut it, they'll love it and ask you back....al

"You ARE da man? " Jeff, I think what you meant to say is, "you da man". Something tells me you're a white guy.

Hi Bob,

Thanks for the encouraging words! I switched from country to jazz a year ago and I am currently playing in a jazz band called BIG, daddy & friends. I don't find jazz all that easy to play but it's coming AND I LIKE IT! I have also met a lot of jazz players who played well but didn't care too much about the theory behind it. Well, whatever it's great fun to do and it expands ones playing a great deal.

Ad

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Zumsteel S12U <I>

Yo, Man!</I>

Ad, I sure enjoyed your playing at Steeldays 2000. Will you be back for 2002? I hope so!
Best wishes,
Jim

I'm really fascinated by the math in the jazz theory. I have been looking at my neck as a F lydian tuning. 12 string c6th with 2 B's a middle D and no low C. I'm working with the Lydian Chromatic Concept. The patterns and scales line up, especially vertically, very well for me.

But this is not necessary to play jazz it just evolved from playing it in my case. I personally am into the high powered fusion stuff and am working towards that.

I got into jazz when I was about 18. A hot jazz trio came into town and my Dad and stepmom took me up to hear them and of course had already told the band about me and they called me up. I nearly ****** my drawers! I've never been more scared to death in my life. I could barely stand still but I tried and they actually thought I was decent! I sat in with them and other jazz bands many times after that and like you said, it gets easier and you get better the more you play it. Oh, for some jazzers in my area now!!! I do love country too, of course, but who says you can't love jazz, blues, classical, Latin, all of it? Why limit yourself? I realize that's heresy to some people.....too bad!

Bob great topic..Thru the years I picked up a Joe Pass teaching video for guitar, now we all know or should know that Joe Pass was one of the greatest of all time . Right there in the first 5 or 10 minutes of his video he is playing like 10 or 15 inversions of chords and he comes right out and says, " Well I don't even know the names of these chords but who cares, you're only suppose to use the ones that sound good to you anyway" He goes on to state that you should not get wrapped up in the actual ligitimate names of everything you play but should have the awareness of tonality and how it fits what you are playing. He didn't say it's not a good thing to know that stuff just that it was not the dominating factor when playing jazz. I've plowed my way thru over 30 years on guitar with a handfull of chords and some substitions for each, and I ain't done yet !

IMHO the biggest issue that we as basic Country Bumpkins have is that the Jazz tunes are from a different planet using chord structures that for the most part we are probably not familiar with. That doesn't mean we can't or shouldn't play them it just means we are in a different venue which we may not be familiar with. I remember a few gigs years back I hired a very fine guitar playing friend to sit in who primarily was a Blues / Jazz player.He couldn't play the Country gig to save his life, primarily because he was not familiar with the material, He is from a different mold. It works both ways. I fired him, he threatened to kill me then we had a few more beers. He's the one I still go to now and again when I hear something that is real foreign to me and if he can figure it out before too many beers then we're in good shape , otherwise we just move on..
tp <FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 22 August 2002 at 03:38 AM.]</p></FONT>

Bob, great topic and I hope to catch you one of these nights.

HEY TONY, I love that tape! And I always love the part where Joe Pass plays one of those really hard voicings, makes a face and says something like "Some guys like to play that stuff, I don't want to work that hard."

The same is true for Wes Montgomery, Kenny Burrell, Herb Ellis and too many other jazz greats to mention here. True, they sometimes use some unusual extensions for chord solo ballads, but for meat-and-potatos comping (90% of all their playing) it's pretty much straight II-Vs. I remember reading an interview with Wes Montgomery where he said he was emabarrased about how limited his chord vocabulary was. EMBARRASSED? WES MONTGOMERY?!?

Let's face it -- there's jazz and there's jazz and there's jazz. Some people like to play complex tonal arrangements and others like to play tunes. For me, I like to play tunes.

indeed a good topic Bob H
i got into Jazz as an extension from playin' Blues.
First i was playin' I/IV/V chords in 12 bars then i moved up to playin' II/III/VI/Maj7/Min9/13th in 16 bars.
i guess the real Fun starts w: all them altered chords eh ?
Agreed that Jazz is Fun and can be Easy
but it's a whole other trip even if there is Blues in Jazz.
Who said "Jazz is not Dead ! it just smells Funny !"

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Steel what?

<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by CrowBear Schmitt on 22 August 2002 at 09:19 AM.]</p></FONT><FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by CrowBear Schmitt on 22 August 2002 at 09:22 AM.]</p></FONT>

CrowBear,
The point you mention about the closeness of jazz and blues and altered chords is very significant. One of the "escape routes" for jazz improvisation when things get over your head has always been to rely on playing blues, and it can be particularly effective over some of the altered chords.

As I was playing a few drunken sets of Sinatra tunes last night I tried to figure out what I was doing.

One of the few successful things I did was to make up chords out of the melody of the tune. Then I listen and try to leave out notes that conflict with the other notes going on around me. I was playing some weird chords based on the melody of "Angel Eyes" that worked pretty good. What I'll do today is try to find a couple different ways to play the chords and transitions I stumbled into last night.

Bob

That's pretty much how Sinatra did it.

Depends on what notes. Sometimes you want that conflict, no? Dissonance and that sort of thing.<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Jeff Lampert on 23 August 2002 at 10:49 AM.]</p></FONT>

I really like dissonance also. I guess by avoiding notes that conflict I mean I try to avoid notes that don't further whatever music is going on around me at the time.

I just get in there and hack away. Sometimes I hit something and its pretty weak and crappy sounding so I try avoid it and try something else next time.

Bob

I did a wedding gig last weekend and the first set was "dinner jazz." I found myself really enjoying trying to fake jazz, and doing a fairly good job at it as far as the solos. I find that you have to be comfortable with your instrument and willing to take chances on stage and in front of the other musicians, and just let yourself go. I don't do the back up chord stuff to well so that's what I'll focus on for awhile, and I'm not going to say"I can't do it " anymore, cause I can!

DZ<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Dave Zirbel on 23 August 2002 at 11:31 AM.]</p></FONT>

Hi Jim,

I did not play on Steeldays 2000, but we did meet then. I will not play at Steeldays 2002 either BUT I WILL BE THERE ALL THREE DAYS. Hopefully we will meet again then.

Ad

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Zumsteel S12U <I>

Yo, Man!</I>

Ad, How embarassing! I must be mixing you up with another player named Ad who was in the band, I think...
Anyway, see you there!
Jim

"Jazz isn't dead, it just smells funny" I believe was a quote of Frank Zappa.

One of the problems I encountered, which I think is common, is that while learning music theory, I tried to analyse everything I heard. This made playing all the more difficult.

Use your theory to analyse when you practice. When you're on stage, use what you know will work.

You may have heard jazz players say "Learn it, then forget you know it." This sounds silly at first, but if I don't feel like I'm playing well, its usually because I'm thinking about it, rather than just playing from the heart.

Mike D you are right ! it was Frank Zappa on the Roxy + Elsewhere album.
No prize though, just the satisfaction of bein' Right On !
Steel a good thread huh ?