The Steel Guitar Forum

I posted about knee levers. Here is Mr Seymour's reply.

"Get a guitar with a lot of knees on it. Then as you learn to play better and better, you can take them off and sell them, one at a time."

At first I thought he was picking on me then it finally dawned that what he was saying made perfectly good sense.

His lesson, as I understand, it is that as you get bettter "less becomes more", Does that make sense?

Considering the source, yes!

Really, (and all this is just my OPINION)--although I would bet that Bobbe's position of "all you really need are two" hasn't caught on with the majority of steel players and maybe the majority never will give up their glob of levers, I agree with him that if you really know your steel and know what you're doing, you can do a whole lot more with two or even one knee-lever than most guys ever realize. I think most steelers end up with 7 or 8 knees just because most of give them a certain "sound", such as the raising of the 1st string a whole step, made popular by Paul Franklin, but not really because they need so many levers. A side-effect of having so many levers for "trademark pulls" is you can get too used to just repeating the same licks and trendy pulls. If a guy already knows everything (and most of us don't, right?) that's fine, he doesn't need to keep learning his fretboard, but I think getting into the habit of just playing pedals and levers prevents a player from really learning what he and the instrument are capable of. I "outgrew" my old Sho-Bud S10 with one knee almost 30 years ago, I thought, but now I have more fun playing it than my D12. By being forced to move the bar to many different positions and think of what's in the tuning itself, I find all kinds of stuff I didn't know or forgot was there.

So....what was the question again?

Seriously, I think too much emphasis has been placed getting a zillion knee levers, and too many people have said (with good intentions), "don't buy a stinkin Maverick or anything else with only one or two knee levers, you'll outgrow it in no time". I would have agreed, had been agreeing with this, because this follows the so-far "normal" pattern for steel players. Now I would advise, if you're beginning, get to know your steel as well as possible, really learn where the notes are on all the strings with the basic one or two knee-lever setup. Then if you want to add more knees later, you'll really have a great foundation to expand. On the other hand, by then you, like Bobbe, may not feel that you need any more than just the two and can play circles around most other guys who have levers all over their steels.<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Jim Phelps on 13 August 2002 at 02:20 PM.]</p></FONT>

Yep.... it makes sense in a weird, quirky, Seymour type way Sadly the reverse holds true, which is why I require specially built D10 guitars with 19 pedals and 27 knees to play "A Way to Survive". I'm saving up for more pedals cause I wanna sound just like my pedal steel guitar hero, Elkin Rutt...no wait a minute, I meant Elmer Fudd


Seriously... most players of his calibre can play without any knees and just smoke the mere mortals like myself....

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Steve Stallings
Bremond, Texas

Seymour's right; when I was living in working in Nashville in the late sixties and seventies, I was in my twenties and played lotsa "hot licks." I'm now in my fifties, and while I don't do it for a living anymore, I play fairly regularly. I find I play MUCH simpler now than I used to. People who have known me all those years say it's better now than then.
I have one guitar with seven knees and one with four; I find I can play almost everything on one that I can play on the other, though there are a couple of individual licks that I can only get on the one. However, like my very longtime friend Dr. Seymour says, you don't put levers or pedals on a guitar for "licks;" you put 'em on for the music.

Bobbe is a very clever man with a wierd and wicked sense of homour, LONG LIVE BOBBE SEYMOUR.

Bobbe could play a pedal-less Maverick with a comb, and blow my socks off!

I think five knees are fine or even four but when you play the back neck the 3rd string raise is very nice and so is the 4th string lower. Those are just good changes I don't like to play without. Four on the front neck is fine but I think it changes when you're talking about both necks.

As my Pappy used to say..."What you really need, and what you think you need are two different things...always will be".

Some players have more pedals that a fire engine has lights, and their playing is uninspiring. Others have few pedals, but play <i>so much more.<i>!

I would have to agree less is more. My best freind here in WV can do more than me even if I had 10 and 10!! I guess with time you get to know the necks better.

This is going to get moved to the "No Peddlers" thread.

The better you are with the bar the less knees you need.(Example) Lloyd Green.

Bob Strum played me a Tom Morrell (SP)? record the other day.Made me wonder if pedals are even necessary.

The knees aren't needed for Tom Morrell, that's for sure! Great stuff....and how about Billy Robinson or even that guy who went to Hawaii....Jerry what's-his-name?

A few years ago at the Texas convention, I saw Bert Rivera play some of the best Big Band music I had ever heard, on his Emmons P/P, and never once saw him use a knee lever. I think his guitar only had two. On the songs he played on E9, he seldom used the two he had. It proved to me that no amount of pedals and knee levers can make up for skill and the knowledge of the instrument. After I saw this, I started trying to find ways to play my favorite licks etc, without using levers and pedals.

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Darvin Willhoite
Riva Ridge Recording

Although there are some great comments and wisdom posted on this subject, I THINK ya'll
missed something important. Fairly recently, Bobbye perfected a "Trick" knee lever setup that enables you to do more with less; in other words, he can set up two levers that will do what four used to do. Bobbye is a little sarcastic, but underneath that hard, crusty exterior, there is a hard crusty....Oops!, ...err!,uhh, I mean there is a very intelligent, knowledgeable and talented Steel Guitarist whom we all respect!
Sorry Bobbye, guess I almost paid you back for calling me a "Monster" which I don't think referred to my playing abilities.
Sincerely,
W.C.

No Wayne, I didn't overlook that the original question pertained mostly to Bobbe's "trick" 2-lever system. I don't believe it matters whether we're talking about Bobbe's trick system or a Maverick, the posts are just as valid and accurate, the point being that a player who knows his instrument can do "more with less" than someone with less knowledge can with any number of levers, whether that's 8 or "Bobbe's Tricky Two".

A good example of using four knees is Buddys tab of "This Cold War With You". (E9th Expo). I'm having fun learning the new sounds I can get with them. But if you'll notice I said learning...that includes the whole pedal steel.

Bob.

Re: Jim Phelps
Jim, I agree with you 100%, there is simply
no substitute for knowing the instrument and
knowing music. You brought out another very
important point that I'd like to comment on
and add a slight twist. You spoke of the danger of getting caught up in "stock" licks
pulls and changes & again I agree 100%! Here
is a related anomalie: I have experimented a
lot with tunings. I finally came up with a pretty simple 11-string, 2-pedal, 5-lever setup;with which I can play most any tune without having to move more than two fretts from the root position. Sounds like a great idea at first, but then I discovered that the longer I used it, the lazier my playing
and execution became;then I got bored.
I guess there is a positive & negative to everything! Maybe that's the glue that holds the universe together!?*
Sincerely,
W.C.

I agree Wayne. I know that like you said, I tend to use all the levers I have and sometimes get bored too, without them I see into the tuning better, play more creatively and even though I miss a lever sometimes, I like my overall playing better and am never bored.

When you have a lot of pedals and knee levers you use them and I think the brain puts the idea of the pedals and levers first, in playing the pedal steel. It makes us think of the pedals and levers more than what we can do without them and automatically limits us to playing with mostly the pedals and levers...? Maybe that's one of the differences between ordinary guys like myself, and the great ones...maybe their brains don't get focused on the pedals and knee levers, and can see not just the pedals and levers' functions but also see past them into the unlimited possibilities of the tuning itself combined with them...?<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Jim Phelps on 16 August 2002 at 11:33 AM.]</p></FONT>

I feel like the pedals and levers limit me because they always point me in the same direction. I think if I was young and heard Robert Randolph, I'd probably choose his tuning and technique over the Nashville E-9.
If I had the guts I'd start experimenting with different tunings and odd pedal changes.

those are the things that hang down...right?

Jim, just some of the things that hang down! (you are reading this stuff way to closley!)
Tom Dooley (hang down your------>

It really is true. If you learn what is on the guitar musically instead of what lick "so and so" does with his knee lever, It is easier to become a better musician.(saves you from wearing out your pants legs too!) It's astounding how much music is on the guitar before you ever get down to the knee levers.
Bobbe<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by BobbeSeymour on 17 August 2002 at 07:18 PM.]</p></FONT>