What's under the mica?

Jim Phelps · Post by **Jim Phelps** » 12 Aug 2002 11:06 am

I remember reading the old MSA's were made of super-dense plywood, but what about the other brands? Do they use solid wood for laquer finishes and ply for mica, or are the laquer jobs veneers too? Are the old Sho-Buds and ZB's the only solid wood guitars? Just curious!

Ann Fabian · Post by **Ann Fabian** » 12 Aug 2002 11:15 am

Actually, according to the mechanical designer of the MSA, Bud Carter (who also did final assembly, among other things), there was a short period of time in the early 1970's that, due to a truck strike, MSA was unable to get Hardrock Maple shipped to them in the quantities they required.

In those days, MSA would take delivery of a truckload of Hardrock Maple each time.

During this short period, a relatively small number of MSA's were made out of Printbed
material (dieboard). Dieboard is actually laminated maple plywood.

After the short period, no other MSA's were made out of dieboard (or plywood as you
refer to it).

They then went back to using Hardrock Maple underneath the mica (laminate).

There basically are 2 ways to tell if you have Printbed (dieboard) MSA:
<UL>[*]They are slightly heavier (maybe 2-3 pounds).
[*]Pull the Left endplate and look at the wood. If you see the layers of laminations in the wood of the body, then you have Printbed. Otherwise you have Hardrock Maple.
[/list]

I believe that a couple of brands which currently use dieboard are GFI and some of the Remingtons.

Most other brands we know of (including the Carter Steel Guitar) use various types of Maple.

A couple of brands which do not use maple, from what we understand, for the bodies are Sierra and GFI.

Bud Carter would be happy to answer if you have MSA questions and both Bud Carter and John Fabian would be happy to answer Carter Steel Guitar questions. They usually can be reached very easily Monday-Friday by:
<UL> [*]phone: 1-972-288-9100 [/list]

Hope that helps!

[This message was edited by Ann Fabian on 12 August 2002 at 12:39 PM.]

Jon Light · Post by **Jon Light** » 12 Aug 2002 11:25 am

Jim--Ann missed the other part of your question--my Carter lacquer body is a bird's-eye maple body--not a laminate. I believe the same is true of Fessenden (body by Mark Giles, same as Carter) and I'm pretty sure Williams too. These are all I have any first-hand eyeball knowledge of.

ooops--Ann did an end around and beat me to the punch.[This message was edited by Jon Light on 12 August 2002 at 12:26 PM.]

Jim Smith · Post by **Jim Smith** » 12 Aug 2002 12:03 pm

During this short period, a relatively small number of MSA's were made out of Printbed material (dieboard).

My late father-in-law had one of those plywood MSA's that unfortunately got water damage from a fire in the club he was playing. He was very upset that the Formica popped off and the plywood warped and buckled. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think dieboard would do that.

A couple of brands which do not use maple, from what we understand, for the bodies are Sierra and GFI.

Sierra, Excel, Dekley student guitar, and probably others use(d) complete aluminum bodies. GFI, Arlington MCI and EMCI, 70's MSA's, Dekley, Thomas, Fender, Baldwin Sho-Bud's, and probably more use(d) aluminum frames with maple tops.

Paul Norris · Post by **Paul Norris** » 12 Aug 2002 12:13 pm

Jim, I think my MSA is metal except for the two necks on top, or atleast it looks that way. Not for sure what year, but it sure plays good.

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 12 Aug 2002 12:59 pm

Jim, re: your late father-in-laws guitar. Being in a fire scene, it was probably subjected to high heat as well. No amount of water would make the Formica come off, since it was bonded with petroleum-based contact cement. Generally speaking, these adhesives hold very well up to about 150 degrees F., and if it did get wet enough to warp the wood underneath, well...that's not typical, and I don'think any PSG ( with the exception of a Sierra, maybe) would handle that without adverse effects.

Playing outdoors, my own plywood MSA has been rained on several times (once, quite severely) but it caused no ill effects.

Lawrence Thomas · Post by **Lawrence Thomas** » 12 Aug 2002 3:13 pm

I have a D10 MSA Classic circa 1974 and it appears to be all aluminum,no wood at all.Was this common?Anybody know?Thanks

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 12 Aug 2002 3:38 pm

Sorry Lawrence, no such thing. Yeah, it's got a lot of aluminum...and a lot of wood too.

The front apron, the necks, as well as the body...it's all wood. Everything that's covered with Formica on your guitar is wood.

Fred Layman · Post by **Fred Layman** » 12 Aug 2002 6:15 pm

Zane Beck used black oak hardwood on his BMIs-- which is plentiful in the Ozarks -- and covered it with Formica. I don't know whether BMI has continued that or not.

Reece can correct my foggy memory here, but Jerry was kind enough to take me on a tour of the MSA plant in the early 70s. Jerry told me, as I remember, that MSA chose plywood for guitar bodies in order to get a sound different from the "Nashville Sound" because Sho-Bud and Emmons had that cornered. Solid maple bodies for MSAs came in about 1975, to the best of my memory. [This message was edited by Fred Layman on 12 August 2002 at 07:19 PM.]

Al Marcus · Post by **Al Marcus** » 12 Aug 2002 8:22 pm

Yeah Fred, and that is when their sound got better.....al

Jim Phelps · Post by **Jim Phelps** » 13 Aug 2002 12:21 am

When I was in Amarillo, TX in the late '70's, I bought a new MSA D-10 that was black laquer with gold pinstriping, and SuperSustain I pickups, around '78. They said it was new, but I think it had been around the store a while. At the same time, they also had in stock what they called "the newest ones", which appeared to be solid maple, with green or blue transparent finishes and SuperSustain II pickups. I don't know if MSA put black laquer finishes on the dieboard models, but that black laquer MSA did have a much better sound (to me) than my '74 mica, which I know is dieboard because part of the binding was loose when I got it and I could see the plies underneith. The black one had more ring and sustain.

Lawrence Thomas · Post by **Lawrence Thomas** » 13 Aug 2002 7:11 am

Yes Donny you are correct.I looked under the felt lining the underside and there is wood underneath.The front apron also appears to be wood.Ill take your word that the necks are wood.What kind i cant discern.The guitar left the factory March 74.It has BLs and the sustain is excellent.Thanks for your input.

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 13 Aug 2002 7:11 am

The black one had more ring and sustain.

Everyone knows that black guitars sound best.

Jim Phelps · Post by **Jim Phelps** » 13 Aug 2002 12:29 pm

Well I'm gonna have to re-do my rosewood mica MSA with black mica then!

But then, my Sho-Bud sounds good and it's, well, kinda muddy reddish-brownish whatever.

OK, thanks for the info everybody, but how about makes like Zum, Mullen, JCH, MCI, EMCI, Marlin, Derby, and dare I say it - what about the (gasp!) almighty Emmons, The Standard By Which All Others Are Measured? (sorry, I couldn't help myself, just having fun now!)

Seriously, how about the new LeGrandes bodies compared to the old P/P's, are they all solid wood? When I say solid wood, I mean no laminations (not counting decorative strips) like the Bigsbys, Sho-Buds, ZBs, etc.

I really have been curious about this for a long time, and in case anyone is wondering, I'm not looking to make any one brand "look better" than any other. My first job was in my dad's cabinet shop at 10 years old, I love wood and things made of it. I like to know how they're made, that's ALL.[This message was edited by Jim Phelps on 13 August 2002 at 01:38 PM.]

Mark Herrick · Post by **Mark Herrick** » 13 Aug 2002 1:37 pm

My Mullen SD-10 is hard rock maple covered with black mica - naturally, because it's black, it sounds great!

I like the way Mullen leaves the underside unflocked/unpainted so you can see that great looking natural maple.

Ricky0ne1 · Post by **Ricky0ne1** » 13 Aug 2002 9:04 pm

Amen Mark, seems I have the same model Mullen as you... Billy Cooper Series SD-10, Blk mica 3&4 .. and one gorgeous hunk of maple.. the wood plugs in the joinery are a nice touch too.. Rick

Ricky0ne1 · Post by **Ricky0ne1** » 13 Aug 2002 10:02 pm

Amen Mark, seems I have the same model Mullen as you... Billy Cooper Series SD-10, Blk mica 3&4 .. and one gorgeous hunk of maple.. the wood plugs in the joinery are a nice touch too.. Rick