Want 65 D10 PP

Steve Stallings · Post by **Steve Stallings** » 21 Jul 2002 6:03 pm

Looking for a wrap around 65 D10 Emmons. Prefer black. Any condition ok.

------------------
Steve Stallings
Bremond, Texas

Kenny Forbess · Post by **Kenny Forbess** » 21 Jul 2002 6:16 pm

Me too Steve,
preferably the one that Randy Reinhart owns,,
but maybe his is a 64, it's "ole #9", as he calls it.
Kenny

Nick Reed · Post by **Nick Reed** » 22 Jul 2002 9:41 am

I want that one called "Blondie", the 65 wraparound that Gary Morrison owns.

Nick

http://steelguitarforum.com/Forum5/HTML/004225.html [This message was edited by Nick Reed on 22 July 2002 at 10:43 AM.]

Paul Warnik · Post by **Paul Warnik** » 22 Jul 2002 10:25 am

Once again I am compelled to ask the question-How much are you willing to pay for such an instrument???

Steve Stallings · Post by **Steve Stallings** » 22 Jul 2002 11:20 am

Paul,
I wasn't aware you had asked me this question? You contacted me about a rosewood PP ....maybe a 73? Did I miss an email?

Now as to what I am willing to pay?.... Condition...Condition ... Condition...

I have done an extensive web search on pricing of Emmons original. I am quite patient. One will turn up

------------------
Steve Stallings
Bremond, Texas

Louis Falardeau · Post by **Louis Falardeau** » 22 Jul 2002 11:25 am

I am looking for one also, any condition.Regards,
Louis

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 22 Jul 2002 11:50 am

Paul
Interestingly, I have found in conversations with a couple of the half-dozen or so steel players who regularly ask me if I'd like to sell my 65 wraparound (or find one for them), is that they are shocked when tell them what I would ask for the guitar should I decide to sell.

I explain that these are rare instruments, probably much fewer than 100 were built. I tell them what prices I know have been paid recently for similar instruments. I tell them what amounts the owners of these instruments have as their insured values. I also say that the figure is right at (and perhaps less than) what someone would pay for a top-line modern fancy steel guitar that was custom-made. And that the amount is definitely less than an Anapeg or an MSA Millenium. Still, they're shocked.

To make a market, a buyer and seller must agree on a value for the deal. For years, Bigsby steel guitars were just considered "old steels," and could be had reasonably. During the last decade, everyone decided that Bigsbys were serious collectibles and the prices skyrocketed and remain quite high. Bigsby steels are few in number, and they are not suitable for the majority of steel jobs today.

On the other hand, I believe there are fewer wraparound Emmons guitars than there are Bigsby steels, AND they can perform on any steel guitar gig available today, since they are a modern steel guitar in every way except two: its hard to do a couple Paul Franklin changes, and split tuning is problematic.

So, theoretically, there should be MORE players seeking 64-65 Emmons guitars than seeking Bigsby guitars. And since there are fewer Emmons guitars than there are Bigsbys, the price for the Emmons should be HIGHER than what is being paid for Bigsbys, since there is potentially higher demand, right?

Demand, of course, is determined by utility of the product and the availability of substitutes. For the vast number of players, there are certainly many acceptable substitutes now for a 64-65 Emmons... basically any steel guitar made since that time! But those few players who decide that they ABSOLUTELY, POSITIVELY MUST have a 64-65 Emmons, should be aware of the market conditions I believe exist.

And one maxim I always use when dealing with musical instruments is this: no deal HAS to go through. For either the buyer or the seller, if the deal HAS to go through, somebody's over the barrel.

There are things I've wanted for a long time, like a Lloyd Loar F-5 mandolin for example, that I will never have the desire necessary to pay the required bucks. And that's okay too. Ultimately, it's just a material possession.

Incidentally, no one on this thread so far is one of the fellas that I was talking about.

Nick
I'd want that guitar myself. IMHO, that's one of the coolest wraparounds that exists. I don't know how it sounds, though. Mike Cass is also restoring an all original STEREO wraparound for the Emmons company. There were probably fewer than 12 "stereo's" built, both wraparounds and woodnecks and prototypes, and I know of at least four that were either destroyed or turned into non-stereo's. This one would also be an incredibly collectible guitar for me. Finally, the "Wagon": the horn Buddy used to cut Price's "Touch My Heart" version. This, as most of us know, he sold to Dickey Overby and ultimately became a wagon for a kid somewheres. However, if I ever found The Wagon, I'd fix it up... at least by putting on a new set of wheels and replacing the handle.

------------------
Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

[This message was edited by Herb Steiner on 22 July 2002 at 01:05 PM.][This message was edited by Herb Steiner on 22 July 2002 at 01:12 PM.]

Paul Warnik · Post by **Paul Warnik** » 22 Jul 2002 2:58 pm

Herb-I can seldom argue with your logic and wisdom-I would not here-I did not think of the 65 model's rarity and value from your viewpoint-which is very interesting-if the 65 Emmons(being more rare and certainly more versatile an instrument) is to be worth more than the most revered Bigsby, then a good wraparound D-10 SHOULD be worth in excess of the current market value of vintage Bigsbys which seems to be in the $6000-$7000 range-I did not know that our wraparounds were bringing that much!

If you have had some solid offers or know of what one recently sold for-than you are-as always my good friend "a leg up on me" in the pricing game end of it-and it is not surprising because of the respect that I share with many others on the Forum for your humble honest opinions expressed here

and I hope your are bringing a wraparound with to Scotty's Oh and Steve S-you did not miss an e-mail and it was a 70's rosewood that we did chat on-I know you really want BLACK

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 22 Jul 2002 3:49 pm

Paul
I've not heard of a wraparound going for $7k. Bobbe S. was asking $6500 for Emmons #1264014, which is a non-milled-lip bolt-on. It sold, but I don't know for how much.

Right now, I know of two 66 bolt-on's going for the mid-3k's without any complaints at all from the buyers. An original 64 woodneck we're both familiar with went overseas for $4k recently. I haven't heard of any wraparounds changing hands lately, so I don't have a market price necessarily, but I have mine insured for $5000, as does another Forumite wraparound owner (who shall remain nameless).

What would escalate the price would be sales snowball. Let's say a dead-mint wraparound sold to someone who HAD to have one for $6000. That would be a benchmark, and would whet some appetites; then another one turned up in less-than-mint shape for $5000. More appetites are stimulated... some guys now want a wraparound that never knew they "needed" one. Another less-than-mint D10 shows up and the seller is now asking $6000, but accepts $5500. Word is out. An restored S10 shows up and the seller gets $3000. So the owner of a non-original D10 thinks, "I'm gonna ask $6000, since the S10 sold for 3." The snowball rolls the prices up.

What might answer a question or two would be if one of these guitars shows up on eBay. That would tell us how many were interested and who jumps out of the the boat at what price.

The $64 question for the owners of these guitars is this: are there enough possible/potential buyers of these instruments at this time to create such a market? It took at least 10-12 years for the Bigsby market to mature, did it not?

This is all hypothetical speculation on my part, anyway. Hey, I'm playing my guitars professionally and they're not for sale.

------------------
Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

[This message was edited by Herb Steiner on 22 July 2002 at 05:10 PM.]

John Steele · Post by **John Steele** » 22 Jul 2002 5:17 pm

Here's a good yarn for you guys. I can't confirm it's accuracy, nor will I give you the source of the story, but here goes:
At one time in the 60's the Royal Conservatory of Music in Toronto, Canada had a "Hawaiian guitar" course. After being convinced that pedals were here to stay, the school purchased a large number of 1965 wraparound Emmons S-10's. I was told 60 instruments, or thereabouts. The course died out, and the instruments were sold off.
Since then, some nearly mint guitars have periodically popped out from underneath beds and out of closets all over Canada. I have a friend that plays one, and that's the story behind it.
Good luck in your quest, Steve. Vintages instruments are a joy.
-John

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 22 Jul 2002 5:25 pm

John
I do know that a good number of wraparounds have come out of Canada. Your story rings true, though the numbers may be exaggerated. I heard "around 30."
Herb

------------------
Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

Steve Stallings · Post by **Steve Stallings** » 22 Jul 2002 6:03 pm

Great info!

uhhm... I would like to point out that I am in no way desperate enough to pay 6k. I think they are really cool and have collectible value but that is about twice what I paid for my 99 black D10 8X10 Legrande II which is a killer guitar.

ain't desperate..... but ain't skeered either

BTW.... I've been contacted by a couple of folks with later cut-tail guitars, but no wrap-arounds in any color as of yet.

------------------
Steve Stallings
Bremond, Texas

Nick Reed · Post by **Nick Reed** » 22 Jul 2002 6:58 pm

Herb:
You know about both my (2) 66' Emmons bolt-on's (D-10 & S-10), especially since you used to have my D-10. A few others like Johnny Steele, Larry Behm, Frank Parrish, Jay Ganz, Kenny Forbess, Mike Bagwell, and Louis Falardeau also have 66' bolt-on's. Do you know how many of these were made by Ron Lashley in 1966. Nick

My 66's:
http://personal.bellsouth.net/bna/a/m/am1070/page10.html [This message was edited by Nick Reed on 23 July 2002 at 05:48 AM.]

Paul Warnik · Post by **Paul Warnik** » 22 Jul 2002 7:26 pm

HERB-the pricing scenario that you describe could easily happen and all it would take to get the ball rolling is one motivated buyer-as you may recall-about ten years ago-when I started collecting vintage Bigsbys and I single-handedly doubled their market value-now the prices have doubled again and I am priced out of the market that I helped to create-so getting back to my question to Steve-perhaps it would have been better to ask not "how much will you pay?" but rather "how bad do you want it?" I don't doubt that Steve is patient enough to wait for that sweet deal to present itself- but it also might be awhile or maybe never happen-so my advice is that if you REALLY,REALLY want the instrument-you may have to do what I did with the Bigsbys and be prepared to pay more than what current market value is to get what you want now-and if that is not an option (financially or morally) then maybe its just another steel guitar dream!

chas smith · Post by **chas smith** » 23 Jul 2002 12:00 am

now the prices have doubled again and I am priced out of the market that I helped to create-s

How do you think I feel?--Chas

Steve Stallings · Post by **Steve Stallings** » 23 Jul 2002 5:48 am

b0b.... please close this. I'm pretty certain that everyone who deals with PP is aware I'm looking for one.

------------------
Steve Stallings
Bremond, Texas

Michael Holland · Post by **Michael Holland** » 23 Jul 2002 7:09 am

Close it!? This is the most interesting thread I've seen in weeks. Thanks to all for their considered comments. This may seem like a lot of money now, but think what these are going to be worth in 50 years. I remember when sunburst '58 - '60 Les Pauls were in the $2,500 range in the early seventies. Thirty years later you can multiply that by a factor of ten to twenty, and there were alot more of them made than early Emmons guitars.

Louis Falardeau · Post by **Louis Falardeau** » 23 Jul 2002 9:44 am

I too have been looking for a D-10 wraparound mainly to just play, not to have as a collector item. I have a sound in my head that I believe only a wraparound will satisfy. I would rather have it than a fancy car or whatever. So, I would be willing to pay the fair market price for it. I believe Herb and Paul have put the prices in proper perspective. I personally feel that 5k, or a little more considering condition and levers etc. would be a good price for me. Naturally I wouldn't want to be the one to drive the prices up. I think it boils down to whatever your priorities in life are and whether you can finacially afford it. Regards,
Louis

Post by **b0b** » 23 Jul 2002 10:07 am

Instead of closing it, I'm moving it to the "Pedal Steel" section so that discussion about these old instruments can continue. Very interesting topic!

Jerry Roller · Post by **Jerry Roller** » 23 Jul 2002 12:24 pm

I have D10 bolt-on Serial #2637. Does anyone know for sure if it is a '65 or '66?
Herb, what is the meaning of non-milled lip bolt-on?
Jerry[This message was edited by Jerry Roller on 23 July 2002 at 01:31 PM.]

Steve Stallings · Post by **Steve Stallings** » 23 Jul 2002 12:39 pm

Jerry,
I thought that the difference between 65 and 66 was that the 66 saw the end of the wrap-around and the beginning of the briefly lived bolt on. Perhaps there are a couple of exceptions, but that was my understanding. I will of course defer to the Herbster

------------------
Steve Stallings
Bremond, Texas

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 23 Jul 2002 1:05 pm

Really, Mike Cass should be the one answering these questions, since he knows much more about the history of these guitars than I do. I guess I'm just online more.

Anyway, on the 1966 bolt-ons, the changer pillars were bolted from the top onto the neck itself in a milled slot/shelf about 1/8" deep, behind the pickup, extending to the end of the neck.

Also, 1966-on woodneck Emmonses also had this same type of changer mounting system. The pillars fit into a 1/8" deep shelf milled from the top of the neck, behind the pickup and extending to the end of the neck.

However, on the early 1964 woodnecks the changer pillars mounted the same way, but even with the top of the neck, there being no milled shelf behind the pickup. Though I didn't see the guitar Bobbe sold except in a photograph, Mike Cass told me that the changer pillars mounted like my woodnecks, directly to the neck behind the pickup without a shelf. It certainly looks that way from the photo I have of the instrument.

Maybe I can upload some photos. anyway, that's the short answer

------------------
Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

Steve Stallings · Post by **Steve Stallings** » 23 Jul 2002 1:13 pm

just so you all know.....

I will be the one you see on the street corner with a sign saying:

"WRAP-AROUNDLESS-WILL WORK FOR STEEL"

Steve Stallings · Post by **Steve Stallings** » 23 Jul 2002 1:24 pm

boy is this confusing..... Jerry, according to the Carter website "PP serial numbers" your guitar is a 1977.... ? Must be a glitch somewhere in the numbering.

------------------
Steve Stallings
Bremond, Texas

Paul Warnik · Post by **Paul Warnik** » 23 Jul 2002 3:11 pm

Steve S-the Emmons serial number part of the Good Folks at CARTER website is not entirely accurate-as an example my 66 bolt-on is number 1019D on their list the first one for 1966 is number 1024