New Steeln Guitar pricing !!!!!!!!!!!!

Steel tryin · Post by **Steel tryin** » 8 Jul 2002 5:19 am

I've been following the Steel Guitar business for 4 years. In that time many new
guitars have increased 25-30%. Opinions as to WHY?? We have all agreed as to the relative value of Steel Guitars. With all the DOOM and GLOOM about the future of steel guitar and an increasing number of high quality guitars available, what's to account for this phenomenon??

Doug Earnest · Post by **Doug Earnest** » 8 Jul 2002 5:40 am

Probably because parts prices keep going up. Legs, machined parts, connectors,time, it all gets more expensive every day. The builders need to pass this on to the customer in order to maintain profit margin. Steel guitars are still a bargain in the big scheme of things. Custom built Fenders can cost more than $3000.

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Doug Earnest
The only Zum Keyless U12, Fender Cyber Twin

Jim West · Post by **Jim West** » 8 Jul 2002 6:44 am

"Steel guitars are still a bargain in the big scheme of things. Custom built Fenders can cost more than $3000."

Your right about that! I purchased my Zum S12 4+5 two years ago for about $2400 and was happy to pay it. If you look at all that goes into building a PSG the price is actually below what other musical instruments go for.

Remember, a PSG is custom built and configured for YOU to YOUR specifications. Try this with Martin guitars or Taylor, even stock acoustic guitars from the above builders go for $3000-$10,000. Now go talk to these folks about a custom configured instrument and the price will continue to rise.I've been to Taylor many times and watched them build there guitars, they do a phenomenal job but there is nowhere the labor that goes into building a pro model PSG like my Zum. Martin had a custom D50 which they built 50 pcs. and it still sold for $50,000!!!

. Imagine a custom PSG going for 50 G's!!!

When you factor everything into your PSG they are an amazing bargain in the musical instrument market today.

Stephen Gambrell · Post by **Stephen Gambrell** » 8 Jul 2002 8:43 am

Hey Doug, have you seen what some of those "Custom" Fenders actually LOOK like? The "Relic" series? Pre'chipped paint, pre-cracked pickguards---what a load of fertilizer! I bought a Squire Strat for 175.00. Sounds real good, I don't care what happens to it. Remember when you could walkinto a music store and buy a Tele for about 200.00, and a Strat was 250.00 or so? Steels were 2 or 3 time that, and worth it, since they were all hand built. Same with Martins. But why is a new Fender worth that much? Enquiring minds want to know!

Rick Collins · Post by **Rick Collins** » 8 Jul 2002 9:07 am

But why is a new Fender worth that much? Enquiring minds want to know!

...standard answer Stephen; the monetary value of any goods is "what someone is willing to pay for it",___no more, no less. The name Fender, manufacturing method, and quality of workmanship add up to a high price.

Rick

Richard Sinkler · Post by **Richard Sinkler** » 8 Jul 2002 9:47 am

I don't feel so bad about the price of a pedal steel. My 9 year old daughter wants to play in her school band. The teacher says he needs trumpet, trombone or french horn players. Well, my daughter has chosen french horn. The teacher has warned us against the oriental (cheap, inexpensive) made horns as being inferior. My wife has talked with several music stores. You want to know what a decent french horn goes for? $1900 - $4000 and up. Evidently there is good resale value on french horns, so it might not be so bad if she quits (although she is not a quitter). Unfortunately the school doesn't have a orchestra. My daughter has been playing violin for about 5 years.

So, $3000 to $4000 for a pedal steel doesn't seem so bad any more.

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Carter D10 9p/10k
Richard Sinkler

Al Marcus · Post by **Al Marcus** » 8 Jul 2002 10:11 am

Rick-may be right. I don't mind paying 2695. for my D10 Carter.

It has the same parts that the others have. Legs, pedal bar , pedals , pickups, tuning keys, end plates, knee levers, cross rods, nylon tuners, pull rods, etc.

I can't play any better on a $4000. guitar than I can on a $2700. one anyway....al

chas smith · Post by **chas smith** » 8 Jul 2002 12:05 pm

You want to know what a decent french horn goes for? $1900 - $4000 and up. Evidently there is good resale value on french horns,

And they make a lovely planter...

Frank Parish · Post by **Frank Parish** » 8 Jul 2002 1:14 pm

I'm not sure I'd buy a new Fender guitar these days. I'm not sure the wood is as advertised. I hear the new Dobros made by the Gibson company aren't even made of real wood anymore. It's a composite. Looks great and doesn't sound anything like the old ones of the 70's made by OMI. A cheap one goes for about $1750.00. I think I'll stick with wood or just buy somebody elses brand.[This message was edited by Frank Parish on 08 July 2002 at 05:29 PM.]

Marc Friedland · Post by **Marc Friedland** » 8 Jul 2002 3:25 pm

I'm actually surprised at how little the prices of new Carters have gone up. I bought mine about 5 years ago at a price that I thought was more than reasonable for such a quality guitar. In all this time the price has only gone up approx. five per-cent to purchase one today. And they even made improvemnts to the guitar (not that they needed it) that are now standard features. I'm impressed. -- Marc

Jerry Overstreet · Post by **Jerry Overstreet** » 8 Jul 2002 4:05 pm

$3000 and up is a lot of money, but you can buy a brand new dbl. 10 pedal steel for around that figure...compared to a carved top F-5 or a archtop name brand guitar, it's reasonable, I think. Plus you get it set-up to your specs. When you consider what guitar pickers pay for high end instruments and "boutique" amps
I say the prices of steels and steel guitar amps are reasonable and justifiable.

Mike Harmon · Post by **Mike Harmon** » 8 Jul 2002 4:32 pm

I'm new to PSG, but have been playing guitar (off and on - mostly off) since the early Sixties.

I agree with Stephen about the "relic" Fenders. I can't understand why ANYONE would pay good money for a guitar that has been intentionally banged up to make it look used. Sorta like the way Levis with threadbare knees used to be a hot designer item!

There are so many Fender (and Squier) Strats around these days I decided I wanted something a little different. So I bought a Les Paul Classic a couple of months ago. Real American-made axe, real mahogany and maple, NICE hardshell case! It has the slim-taper neck and plays like a dream. For $1299, (IMHO) it's a lot cooler guitar than any Fender I've played lately!

When I decided to give steel a try, I found an old Sho-Bud Pro III Custom at a very attractive price. It's in the hospital right now, getting bent, broken, and stripped parts replaced, but when it comes out ... well, I can hardly wait!

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Mike Harmon
Sho-Bud Pro III Custom
Nashville 400

Martin Weenick · Post by **Martin Weenick** » 9 Jul 2002 1:00 am

Still a bargain at todays prices. A CNC milling machine can cost a quarter million dollars. Quite an investment and thats just to make some of the metal parts.Plus gobs of hours of labor. I'm not complaining.

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Martin W. Emmons LG III 3/5 Peavy 1000

Kenny Davis · Post by **Kenny Davis** » 9 Jul 2002 7:26 am

I'm clearly on the "down hill" side of my playing career, only playing 10 or so paying jobs a year. I don't have a desire or a need to purchase a new guitar - But if I did, I wouldn't hesitate to pay today's prices for one. I'd even consider the new MSA because these instruments are tools of our trade...INVESTMENTS! My Pro II is worth within a couple hundred dollars of what I paid for it nearly 30 years ago. I don't know how many times it's paid for itself. If steel guitar is only a hobby for a player, I can see having a problem with spending 3 grand, but if you're a working player - I don't understand the complaining.

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 9 Jul 2002 8:09 am

Right...it's a "tool of the trade". You get quite a bit of engineering, raw material, and custom labor...considering what you pay. It takes hours just to "rod and time" a new axe.

My nephew's a mechanic by trade, and he recently spent $4500 just for a tool box (tools not included)! It's a big one, and it's a good one (Snap-On), but just an empty tool box, nevertheless.

Luckily, there are many fine used steels for sale for around $1500.

If you wanna play, 'ya gotta pay!

Steel tryin · Post by **Steel tryin** » 9 Jul 2002 12:30 pm

Thanks for the input. It seems PRICE is irrelevant to someone wanting a particular brand of NEW Steel. And NO BODY is complaining!!!!!! Just a thread of inquiry.

Jody Sanders · Post by **Jody Sanders** » 9 Jul 2002 9:13 pm

If you could go to a pedal steel builder and watch one built from day one to finished product, you would easily understand the cost. Also they will last a lifetime if properly maintained. Jody.

Steel tryin · Post by **Steel tryin** » 10 Jul 2002 4:35 am

Often FORUM members read a thread
and then proceed to respond to something else.
Many of you have defended the absolute PRICING of New Steel Guitars. My question was specifically about the reasons for cost going up in the face of an increasing number of
HIGH Quality guitars? It was more of a supply demand question. I guess it's similar to the new car market. Some people want something new regardless.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » 10 Jul 2002 1:37 pm

I think I understand what you are asking. There are several economic causes for price increases. One is decreasing currency value (or general inflation), something that hasn't been a big problem since the early 1980's. Another would be increased costs of production specific to the steel guitar industry (a possible explanation, but not likely in my opinion).

The main remaining factor is increased demand. Here's where it gets boring.

In the language of microeconomics, there is a distinction between an increase in demand and an increase in the quantity demanded. Demand is a function, a line on a graph that shows the relation between price and the quantity demanded at any given price.

Similarly, supply is a function, not to be confused with the quantity supplied. The price at which the supply function and the demand function intersect is the price at which the quantity demanded matches the quantity supplied -- the equilibrium price.

An increase in the quantity demanded (without a change in the demand function or supply function) would cause an increase in price which would cause in increase in the quantity supplied which would cause a decrease in price, which would bring us back to that position where demand and supply intersect and price is in equilibrium.

An increase in demand, however, is a change in the demand function itself, and is usually the result of changing tastes and preferences. The demand function for gourment coffee is much different today than it was ten years ago.

When a price increase is sustained in the face of increasing supply, that is a good indication that the demand function has shifted upward, changing the price point at which demand and supply intersect and increasing the equilbrium price.

In other words, the demand function for steel guitars has risen. This could be the result of increased popularity (more players buying guitars) or players buying multiple instruments (guitar acquisition syndrome), or a combination of the two.

anybody still awake?

William Steward · Post by **William Steward** » 10 Jul 2002 3:41 pm

In simple terms that even Adam Smith could understand, is this another way of saying that manufacturers charge what the market will bear? If Yamaha or some other big company decides that the steel guitar market is worth getting into and come out with a pro model guitar for $2000, surely they will sell like hotcakes. I assume that a large company can cut costs by the utilization of mass manufacturing methods however I assume the big instrument companies aren't making steels because the market is too small. I think this is a good thing since a lot of steel guitar builders are what you might call 'cottage industries' and there are getting to be less of those around.....which in my opinion is a bad thing but Adam Smith would probably say I told you so. Luckily the instrument is so hard to play, it is unlikely we will start finding them under the Christmas tree in every second home.

Gary Walker · Post by **Gary Walker** » 10 Jul 2002 8:20 pm

If a large company like Yamaha were to get into building steels, they would use labor from Taiwan where rice is cheap and the main meal. I bought a PX-20 Yamaha guitar which was the top of the line and a real beauty, Made in Taiwan instead of Japan where the wages are higher.

Steel tryin · Post by **Steel tryin** » 11 Jul 2002 6:03 am

Wow Stephen now thats what I call a DIRECT RESPONSE. I also think Steel Guitar enthusiast brings a VERY UNIQUE emotional component to the market place. I believe this adds satisfaction to the final purchase
whatever the cost. And Gary, I married a Taiwanese woman and most everythings moving to MAINLAND CHINA for 25cents an hour.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » 11 Jul 2002 5:44 pm

William and Gary - yes, sellers will always try to get the highest price they can, but as long as there is competition, there will be constraint on how much they can get.

I believe that if the market for steel guitars were large enough (as large as the market for standard guitars, for example), we would see D10s for under $1,000 and the quality would be suprisingly good. But, the quality builders would still survive and even prosper despite their higher prices, just as we've seen with Martin and Taylor (not to mention the many other low volume/high quality/high price luthiers).

Frankly, I am glad to be part of a musical niche that hasn't attracted the big companies. But I do wish that somebody would start building Sho-Buds again.

Steel Tryin: Hey, my wife is from Taiwan too. And you're right -- all the jobs are moving from Taiwan to mainland china. It's kind of like the U.S. in the 1970's. Say hello to your wife for me.

Jim Smith · Post by **Jim Smith** » 11 Jul 2002 5:58 pm

Hmm, guess we're getting off topic here. I'm not married anymore but my girlfriend of nine years is Chinese from Taiwan. She doesn't really understand country music and can't stand my smoking, but we still get along great. I'm curious as to how your wives handle such things?

chas smith · Post by **chas smith** » 11 Jul 2002 10:03 pm

Well, my wife/girlfriend is part Cuban, I'm not sure which part, but I think the rest might be from Alpha Centauri. When we go on vacation, she insists that I bring along a practice guitar, lap or Dobro and a bottle of Tequila. She's exactly the opposite of her predecessor, who was from Hades.