The Steel Guitar Forum

On the L/L knee lever on my Emmon LeGrande III, I raise the high F# to G#; the Eb to E; and lower the bottom G# to F# (with a split tuning to G with pedal B). I also have a compensator so that the G# comes back in tune.

I realized that my G# was not lowering all the way to F# (even though it was originally set up at the factory and worked fine). I also have noticed that the compensator is not working effectively. No matter how much I turn the nylon tuner of either the G# string or the compensator, nothing is happening.

I then realized that the nylon tuner was so far in, it was lowering the string before the lever was engaged. Additionally, I turned the compensator counter clockwise, letting it out a bit, and I saw the string go up in tuning (obviously, the compensator was lowering the tuning as well). I'm not even sure where to start here -- it seems like I may need more room to allow the proper lower, but I'm not sure why this would happen all of the sudden. If I need to get more room, how do I adjust this?

To top it all off, when I tune the raise to A on pedal B, it seems to keep drifting very slighting flat -- when I push the tuning wrench on, it goes up to pitch; perhaps something is catching or maybe this is all inter-related to the lowering problem.

I would appreciate any direction/input I can get -- I always seem to get my answers here on the forum.

Thanks in advance, Boo

Bump

I think you are adjusting the rod that tunes the splits. Go to the Carter site and look at their 'tuning the splits' video. I could be off beam here, but why would the legrande have compensators when it has the crowbar mechanism?

The LeGrande III has a mechanism to alleviate cabinet de-tuning. The compensators are used on strings that are both raised and lowered. When a string is raised and then lowered, it comes back sharp. The compensators help it come back in tune. So, while I am completely capable of tuning the wrong mechanism, in this case it's not the problem Thank you however for your input and response -- it is appreciated.

If anyone has any experience with this problem, I would appreciate your help. Thanks again. Boo

Bump -- I have to do a session this week, so I'm being persistent on this. Thanks, Boo

A question on an Emmons...call Emmons. It sounds like the problem with your 6th string lower is, your split-tuner screw is turned too far in and won't let the string lower to pitch.

Boo, you are as soo many have been, in a state of "chasing your tail". And I am not being critical.

Here is the problem. We are confusing one type of cure for another kind of problem. It is the most common form of "gettin one's self in trouble" when servicing ANY product.

So let's back up for a moment, and I believe I can help you solve your problem(s).

1. The problem of strings NOT comming back true when raised and lowered.

2. The problem of strings being sharp when trying to split them.

3. The problem of strings lowering in pitch when OTHER strings are raised in pitch.

The first problem is called "hysterisis". ALL keyed guitar exhibit this problem, more or less.

The third problem is called "cabinet drop" and most all guitars exhibit this more or less.

The middle problem is not really a problem at all, rather it is because of the natural happening of music itself. IE, if you look at any fretted instrument you will note that EACH fret is closer to the next one working towards the bridge. This then results in the situation of splits being too sharp.

Now, to assist you with your problems, your LeGrande III was designed to get rid of cabinet drop. It has nothing do do with nylon tuners or opening string tuning whatsover.

IF you engage the A pedal as an example AND your 6th string drops in pitch, the "anti-detuner" is NOT adjusted properly. The same is true if the 6th string raises in pitch when you engage the A pedal. In this case it is OVER compensating. A very commom problem once someone has messed with it.

It is easy to adjust. Put a tuner on and pick the 6th string. Engage the A pedal and watch the needle. It should NOT move. If it does reach under the guitar and adjust the little knurled tuner attached to a bellcrank on the A pedal crossbar, until the needle does NOT move.

Do this for the B pedal (string 4) and the C pedal (string 6). That is all there is to it.

Now if you are having trouble with your split on the 6th string, it is easy to cure.

1. Run the nylon tuner (6th string lower) out so it has NO affect.

2. Run the allen screw (6th srting) on top of the guitar just to the right of the changer, until it has NO affect

3. Tune the raise on the 6th string on the B pedal using the raise nylon tuner.

4. Now split the tuning and tune the nylon tuner on the 6th string lower for a good "split" note.

5. Engage just the lever that lowers the 6th string a whole tone. Then adjust the allen screw so that the F# note is in pitch.

You may have to do this a couple times to get it right.

The final problem, hysterisis may not be cured on your guitar if it did NOT come with the optional compensators do solve this problem.

You can tell if you have them by looking at the bottom lower changer holes. If there is a nylon tuner and a pull rod in most of thes holes, look to see if there is a tiny 0 ring between the nylon tuner and the changer finger. If so they are compensators.

Here is the way they are adusted.

1. Back off the nylon tuners on these compensator rods so they have no affect.

2. Now raise and lower a given string. Example the 4th string. You will find it does NOT come back in tune in one of the situations.

3. Tune it so the raise comes back in tune. The lower now will always come back sharp.

4. Now, adjust this "compensator" nylon tuner to counteract that slight raise in pitch upon engaging a lower and then releasing that lower.

This is a VERY, VERY critcial adjustment. And it is VERY easy to over compensate. If you find yourself chasing your tail, back it off completely and start over.

Good luck, and may our precious Savior richly bless you in your quests,

carl

Carl --

Thank you so much for taking the time to write a detailed answer. I have no problem with the anti-detuner or the split tuner. It's just the string compensator that you mention -- it is no longer working. Plus I seem to need more travel for the lowering of the G# to F#. This all just happened recently -- I have looked to see if any ball ends are stuck anywhere, but I don't see any. Do you think I need a new O ring? Or could it all be about the travel?

Thanks again for your kind insight and help. Boo

In this case I don't really think this is the problem but any time a LeGrande II or III gives a problem not being consistant with a pedal or lever you should check for a cracked bellcrank. Another thing when a guitar has been working correctly and suddenly appears to not have enough travel you should make sure you have not mistakenly put a wrong guage string on it.

Jerry is absolutely correct. The 14 hole bellcrank is, IMO, the single greatest improvement to the PSG since its inception.

However, there is a tendency for these bell cranks to crack right where the crease is. And you can look right at them and not always see it. And what Jerry says, can and does cause the very problem you have.

I do not believe the 0 ring is defective. I have never seen one go bad. I believe if you follow Jerry's and my suggestions, you will find the problem and cure it. If not, give Ron Jr a call at Emmons,

carl

One other point I would consider anytime a changer is not doing as it should. I sold a perfectly good LeGrande III to a friend and he a year later sold it to another of my friends claiming there was something "wrong with the guitar". The guy that bought it found several broken ends of 3rd strings hung in the changer. He removed them and the guitar plays like a dream. Just another something to always look for when you have a problem with the changer not being consistant.
Jerry<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Jerry Roller on 01 July 2002 at 08:59 PM.]</p></FONT>

Thanks to everyone for your help and advice -- I'll give these suggestions a try and see if I can narrow the problem down. Thanks again. Boo

Boo, I thought I would add this that happened to my Legrand. It may or may not help or solve your problem.

My B string (5th) was real inconsistant and I would tune on it and it would be fine and then all the sudden it would be out again. We finally found the problem. There was a notch that the changer had made in the end plate. Maybe caused from a foot slipping off a pedal or just a weak place in the end plate stop, don't know. Anyway, every now and then the changer would slip down into the notch and throw the tuning way off. You could tune it and as long as the changer stayed in the notch it was fine but then it would pop back on top and you would be tuning all over again. Hope this is not your problem because you would have to have a new end plate. Emmons are guarenteed for life against workmanship so Emmons would fix the problem. Hope this helps and you find your problem.
Henry Matthews
L Legrand II,D-10
1982 Emmons p/p D-10