The Steel Guitar Forum

Well, I am thinking of learning PSG. I have been reading on this site for a while, trying to pick up some suggestions on the best way to go about it. The sound I want to capture is all 1960’s Bakersfield/West Coast: Wynn Stewart, Buck Owens, Warren Smith, the Challenge and Toppa sides, etc. In other words, Ralph Mooney and friends. I want to capture that twangy sharp biting steel sound. Now, the questions.

1) What is my equipment of choice? I have a 1960 Standel all tube amp. I believe this to be an important addition, for both sound and look. As for guitar, I have yet to make a purchase. I read about the Fender’s, but I hear they are not the best guitar to learn on. I do not want to fight the instrument in my learning. So, what would be an option. I love the look of the Sho-Bud’s, but I gather they may be no better to start with than the Fender. I know about the need of a S10, 3+3 or 3+4, so that is already being factored into the equation. My budget for a guitar is around $1000-$1400. The way I look at it, if I get a quality guitar, a used pro model, I would be able to sell it for around what I put into it should that need arise. How about a Fender or a Sho-Bud with new “guts”. So, look is important, as is the playability of the instrument. That is stated in reverse order of importance, but if possible, I would like to meet both objectives.
2) Does anyone have any suggestions on learning material for the style I am talking about. I have already ordered the Winnie book. What next? I understand that equipment plays a big role in the sound, but so does the style of play.


Well, that is it for now. Thanks for any and all help.

James
San Diego, CA

James, you can get that sound from just about <u>any</u> steel. It's more a matter of pedal and right hand technique, and amp settings, than it is the type of guitar you play! The Jeff Newman learning materials would be a good place to start. Jeff did a pretty good job of playing this kind of stuff recently on the "Our Kind of Country" CD by Jim and Jesse.<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Donny Hinson on 26 June 2002 at 07:20 PM.]</p></FONT>

I agree that the CA sound can be obtained from many brands of steel with the correct technique, but IMHO the most "Fenderesque" sounding guitar manufactured today is the GFI.

The Standel amp is a nice choice. Mine are augmented by a Fender Reverb unit.

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Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

I agree with Herb about the GFI and your amp. As far as study goes, find Frank Arnett and spend a couple of months with him. He's the closest thing to Mooney you'll ever find.

Yeah Frank's in Tennessee these days, he's got the Crest label.
Kenny, did you know Frank in his Oklahoma days?

Forget the Fender pedalsteels unless you want to deal with a cable system. A bunch of the Fender pedalsteels were built by sho-bud anyway. There is nothing the matter with an old Sho-Bud that is in decent shape. Plenty of the best players on the planet are using them with the old guts intact.

Here is a guy in LA that I have heard nothing but good things about:

www.quikpage.com/B/blackie/

Have fun !

Bob

In doing some reading, it seems that I noticed that the Sho Bud's have a wood neck, thus making their sound a bit 'less bright' then non-wooden neck guitars. Is this true? Does it not really matter when adjustments to amp settings are considered?

James

James,
The wood neck does not matter for the sound you are describing. Mooney used a wood neck Sho-Bud himself.

Read what Donny posted again !

Bob

Hello James,
I agree with most of the comments so far on this topic BUT... If you really want the 50's/60's sound of Ralph Mooney, Tom Brumley, or Jay MacDonald you need to find an old Fender 400 or 1000. Ralph had a 1000 but he never touched the outside neck. He had the E9 on the inside. I'd say the amp you have is OK but an old Fender Twin would probably be better. I like what Herb said about the Fender portable reverb unit. As I remember, your amp doesn't have reverb does it? I had a couple of old Standels in the past with 15" JBL speakers which were killer amps. I wish I'd have kept them now. They had an input in both ends of the face plate and I'd use a Y-chord and play both channels with it. Sometime in the late 60's I was playing at Walt's Club in Southgate, Ca. and we had Bobby Austin for a guest artist. He brought Ralph Mooney with him. Ralph had a Fender amp which they'd built for him. It had the cabinet of a Super Reverb but had a 15" JBL in instead of the usual 4-10's. The power unit had 4 6L6 tubes plus built in reverb. The black face plate said "Fender Showman" on it. I don't believe Fender ever marketed this amp but I've always thought it would have sold well among the steelers. If you want to play other stuff I'd agree with the GFI but still I don't think you'll ever really get the old stuff without the Fender cable model guitar. I just scored a CD of the old Buck Owens album where he sing Tommy Collins songs. Jay MacDonald's all over it and he's got that wonderful old sound for sure.

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Livin' in the Past and the Future with a 12 string Mooney tuning.

<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Jerry Hayes on 27 June 2002 at 05:01 AM.]</p></FONT>

james,
i live here in san diego and if you would like to come over and sit down at a couple of steels your more than welcome. as far as the mooney thing, i think i could show you a few things that will get you started in the right direction. i have to agree with donny's reply, its more the way you play than what your playing on allthough nobody would disagree that an old fender 1000 and a twin would be the real sound if you really wanted that tone.
david b

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><HR><SMALL>The wood neck does not matter for the sound you are describing. Mooney used a wood neck Sho-Bud himself.
Read what Donny posted again</SMALL><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Read this a couple of times. Don't worry so much about which steel and which sound you want. Get a used steel (which can always be resold), get a basic course, and start learning. For your price range, you can get any number of fine pro-level guitars. Also, the Carter starter gets good reviews, but a new one will lose value, whereas a used guitar generally won't. Just get something and go.
<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Jeff Lampert on 27 June 2002 at 08:10 AM.]</p></FONT>

I really miss my Fender 1000, it had the instant Ralph Mooney sound. But, I stubbed my toe on that stinkin' 100 pound case one too many times and it had to go. I would've thrown it out the window but I did not have a can of spinach in the house.

That being said, these guys are right: It's not just the steel but the other factors too. It's just a little easier with the 1000.

The old Fenders will give you that exact sound, but if you want the versatility of knee levers you should get a GFI. That's what Mooney plays today.

Also, consider a dedicated inside pedal, close to your volume pedal, that will raise the high E to F# only. This makes a lot of the Bakersfield licks easier to find and a lot more fun to play.

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<img align=left src="http://b0b.com/coolb0b2.gif" border="0"><small>               Bobby Lee</small>
-b0b-   <small> quasar@b0b.com </small>
-System Administrator

Don't misunderstand. I am looking for a guitar that will make it easy for me to learn. I am just hoping that I will be able to find something that will make learning fun and have that sound/look.

Has anyone used a Sho Bud or Fender that has been retrofitted with newer hardware? I hear the Sho Bud Super Pro is a good one to do this with. Fender? Are those all cable? Can they be replaced with rods?

James

As much as equipment is critical (and it is), I'm also going to suggest just really listening to all that great old Buck Owens stuff with Ralph Mooney. The album that really does this for me is the "Sings Harlen Howard" album which has some of the finest Ralph Mooney material on it, period.

Tone may be in the hands, but ideas are in the head, and, most importantly, in the ears.

Just my .02

Oh yeah, have fun, too!!!

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Larry Chung
ZB D-10 8+4
ZB Custom S-11 4+4

I also think you should get a guitar that is "ready to go". If you buy a Super Pro or a Fender with the thought of gutting it out and replacing the cables (Fender) with rods or the pot metal parts on the Super Pro, you could easily go way beyond the $1000 - $1400 you want to spend (getting parts machined is fairly expensive).

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Carter D10 9p/10k
Richard Sinkler

How about one of those Sho Bud built Fenders? I seem to recall Bobbe Seymour descibing the tone as more Fender than Sho Bud, though I have never tried one. I do know that my Pro ll plays easy, sounds great, looks great, stays in tune...I wouldn't change the under side (except that plastic knee lever clip thing).

James-

Congratulations on deciding to become a steel player. I think we're kind of a dying breed.

Having been mostly self-taught on the guitar and the steel, I can say that the single most important thing is that you and the instrument are a good fit. I have played lots of regular guitars (even expensive ones) that are so poorly set up that if I had been forced to learn on them, I don't know that I would have ever been any good.

My recommendations are:

1) Buy a good name-brand fairly 'modern' steel. I have a Sho-Bud Pro I that is borderline in that regard. Those barrel tuners are way trickier to set up than the newer guitars.

2) You will get a lot of advice on what certain guitars sound like, but twang is in the ear of the beholder. The steel that does it for someone else might not sound that great to you. I have listened to myself on CD (after the engineer does his magic) and wondered where that 'killer tone' was during my live performances. Answer: It's in the ENGINEER'S HANDS. Duplicating in a live situation what a pro player gets on a record/cd is REALLY hard.

3) Quality and functionality are important. My new used Williams S-12 is SO much easier to set up, tune, and KEEP in tune than my old Sho-Bud. If your steel is a pain in the butt to set up and play, you will struggle with it and it will hold you back.

4) Absolutely, no question DO NOT try to buy a steel and modify it. This way lies madness. It will most likely turn into a money pit that never plays well, and will be near impossible to resell. Buy something normal. If it's not what you like, you can recoup most of you money.

5) Buy a nice S-10 or D-10 and learn to play. A year or two down the road you will know enough about the instrument to make decisions about the next step. Buying a vintage steel may actually prevent you from ever getting a vintage sound, IF: It is too heavy to carry around, to tough to set up, to difficult to get/keep in tune.

To summarize, tone is in the hands and head. Buy a steel that makes it easy for the hands and head to do their job.

Have at 'er

James, thank`s for the call the other day, but I have a little egg on my face. That d-10 Sho~Bud on the floor has alluminum neck`s, that`s why Albert Talley said that one sound`s so great,He don`t like wood neck`s. Hang in there keep searching, Im curious what you`ll end up with.
Chuck Norris NFM

Larry says -

"As much as equipment is critical (and it is), I'm also going to suggest just really listening to all that great old Buck Owens stuff with Ralph Mooney. The album that really does this for me is the "Sings Harlen Howard" album which has some of the finest Ralph Mooney material on it, period.

Tone may be in the hands, but ideas are in the head, and, most importantly, in the ears."

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I totally agree with this statement. A lot of the times the tone of which you speak is the actual notes they're playing and how they phrase them. If you play like Doug Jernigan (I can only hope ) and you go out and duplicate all of the equipment that Mooney and the rest of the Bakersfield guys use in order to sound like them, you're still, for the most part, going to sound like Jernigan.

I would suggest that first you start listening and learning to what they're playing and not so much how they sound.

Just my humble opinion

Good Luck!

In my opinion, people who replace the cables on old Fenders with rods completely destroy the unique character of that particular brand of guitar. Same goes for those who take out the rack-and-barrell of a Professional or convert an Emmons push-pull to all-pull.
As for your quest, I think it´s important to find a guitar that YOU really like, that you feel "at home" with. Try as many as you can. Old or new is not that important but it´s gotta have that "vibe" and I think you´ll know when you find it. I´d go for something not too complicated that stays in tune well. That Mooney sound is more of a physical thing, especially picking (generally very close to the bridge and a rather hard attack) and pushing the pedals (also rather vehement). When listening closely to his recordings you will find that´s the only way to do it. If you want to figure it out you gotta look at it from a kind of "simple" point of view. Mooney´s setup was, and with some extensions still is, very basic. I think it´s an excellent thing to begin with and, once you´ll have it down, can be a really satisfying experience. It really doesn´t have a lot in common with the "contemporary" steel sound. That´s why I like it so much

Good luck, Joe H.

James,

I'd stick with the Gary Morse setup. A Sho~Bud and a P.O.D going through the amp of your choice. I have this setup and it is pretty sweet.

Mark

James:

You should play with a compressor. If you set the threshold so that the compressor kicks in everytime you hit a note, you have an instant "Mooney Machine". It gives you sort of a "chicken pickin" sound that is very west coast sounding. Of course, the single note licks, the way the amp and guitar is set, will finish off the sound. The advice about getting a fairly recently built steel is great advice. The pedal steel is a new instrument still evolving, so you want to take advantage of later technology and not buy an old guitar with yesterdays technology.

"The pedal steel is a new instrument still evolving, so you want to take advantage of later technology and not buy an old guitar with yesterdays technology."

Unless your into the "retro" look take the above advice. Todays steels are much better instruments than they were in the 60's.

I don't think it's a good idea to use a compressor when you're just learning to play. You can't develop control of your hands and volume pedal with a compressor in the signal path.

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<small><img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b.gif" width="64" height="64">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
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