MSA S-10 knee levers move

Ken Greene · Post by **Ken Greene** » 31 Jan 2014 8:54 am

I'm a beginner, trying to keep my 70's MSA knee levers from moving out of position every time I sit down to play. Whenever I use the levers, they seem to spin just a bit on the bar which they are clamped. I have loosened the clamps, cleaned the bar with alcohol to remove oils, etc. in case that was an issue, then tightened the set screw real snug, but it just seems to keep happening. I've also tried to be careful not to push too hard on the levers. Does anyone have any suggestions to help me resolve this problem?
Thanks!!

Mike Wheeler · Post by **Mike Wheeler** » 31 Jan 2014 9:07 am

If you mean the knee lever is slipping on the cross-shaft, I loosen the clamp and sand the area (only where it sits) with course sandpaper to provide more grip. (go around the shaft as much as you can) You should end up with coarse scratches...don't sand like you're polishing. One time I just used a sharp screwdriver to make lots of scratches on the shaft. That worked also.

It would be good to also roughen the inside of the knee lever clamp so as to provide more grip, but to do that you need to remove the cross-shaft. Don't do that unless you are very comfortable with working on you guitar.

If that's not enough to stop the slipping, then I'd go to the hardware store and get a new setscrew. Take the old one for comparison...the tip that contacts the cross-shaft must have a small cup in the tip to bite into the shaft.

Lastly, these setscrews must be tightened so they bite into the shaft. There's a lot of torque being applied to the lever when its used. I know many guys hate the round shafts because of the slipping issue, but I've never had that problem after doing what I've described above.

There are more extreme measures that can be taken, but I won't mention them yet. Please post back to let us know your progress.

Bob Carlucci · Post by **Bob Carlucci** » 31 Jan 2014 9:47 am

I have owned many 70's MSA guitars over the decades, still have an S10 5+4.. Never had that problem at all, ever,,

Once those lever clamps are tightened properly, it takes a great deal of force to spin them...

If you continue to have issues, an allen set screw installed in the clamp should solve the problem.

Mike Wheeler · Post by **Mike Wheeler** » 31 Jan 2014 9:58 am

Bob, you are, of course, correct. Once those knees start to slip, no amount of tightening will help much. That's why I pointed him at the fixes I listed. I think they are the "best" way to correct the issue without having to resort to "non-original" kinds of repairs.

I always prefer keeping repairs as close to original as possible. But in extreme cases a fix like yours would do the trick for sure.

Ken Greene · Post by **Ken Greene** » 31 Jan 2014 10:33 am

Thanks for the tips, Mike. I will try that. Truth is, I considered roughing up the shaft a little bit, but was reluctant to do that until consulting with some more experienced players. They levers have been slipping ever since I acquired the guitar, but it doesn't appear that anyone has ever tried to fix it, as far as I can tell. I will let you know how it turns out, and thanks again!!

Jim Smith · Post by **Jim Smith** » 31 Jan 2014 11:31 am

Assuming this is an MSA that clamps the knee levers to the shaft, the two legs that clamp together have probably stretched and weakened over time. I've had good luck by widening the gap with either a hacksaw or a thin file. That will give more room to tighten it down before they touch.

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 31 Jan 2014 12:13 pm

Mike, on MSA, the screws don't contact the shaft. They snug the "ears" on lever down to the rod.
I think I like sanding the "ears" down just a bit. That will make it grip harder.

Mike Wheeler · Post by **Mike Wheeler** » 31 Jan 2014 2:21 pm

Yep, that's correct, Lane. The cranks are a little thin for a set screw in the band portion. As I said before, I'd first try the procedures I outlined. If they don't work, then there are other things that could be tried. Jim Smith mentioned one of them.

Bear in mind that those shafts and cranks are held by friction and when they begin to slip they tend to "polish" each other. Roughing them up to regain adhesion is both a simple and effective solution. That's why I advised trying it first.

Chris Gabriel · Post by **Chris Gabriel** » 31 Jan 2014 2:57 pm

What about the "stop" or whatever that thing is called, I'd post a pic if I could. I only mention that since it hadn't been mentioned up to this point, and it was the culprit when I had the same slippage issues in my MSA. It took a fellow steeler to point it out to to me (thanks Pete Burak).

Mike Wheeler · Post by **Mike Wheeler** » 31 Jan 2014 5:49 pm

Chris, you are correct. The lever stop could be where the slippage happens. But the original post explained that the lever itself was turning on its cross shaft, so I focused on that.

If the stop is indeed slipping, the same repair approach given could be used on it.

Les Cargill · Post by **Les Cargill** » 31 Jan 2014 6:00 pm

I am redoing the copedent on a MSA with round shafts - what I find is that putting the short leg of the hex wrench in a (very small) Vise-Grips pliers allows
me to get enough torque to keep the knee levers from slipping. This is enough torque that you can feel the
allen wrench flex.

The Vise-Grips are about three-four inches in length.
http://www.lowes.com/pd_81278-16878-539 ... Id=3059921

Of course, a T-handle allen wrench would be even better.

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 31 Jan 2014 6:23 pm

Ideally, a stop for the *KL levers should stop the levers, instead of stopping the shaft. When you stop the shaft, the glutes and hips put pretty substantial forces, and the force will go to trying to slip the lever or the stop. Pedals, *KR, and LKV all have stops at the lever, and are less likely to slip.

Jim Palenscar · Post by **Jim Palenscar** » 31 Jan 2014 6:30 pm

What Jim said. It is not uncommon that the metal fatigues over time and the clamping cannot exert enough force to keep the bellcrank/stop/lever in place anymore because the two sides of the clamping part are in contact with each other. Removing the part in question and either replacing it or widening the gap by using a hacksaw/band saw, etc will usually solve the problem.

Les Cargill · Post by **Les Cargill** » 31 Jan 2014 6:55 pm

Lane: My recently acquired MSA Classic has "stops" for the *KR pedals ( the ones with reversers ) made of a ferrule screwed into the aluminum; the *KL levers have a truncated-but-wide "bellcrank" (with no holes) that stops the cross shaft when the "stop-crank" goes flat against the body of the guitar ( the right angle piece of aluminum behind the apron ). The *KL levers are more adjustable than the other ones.

They all seem to work quite well - when tightened. You gotta whang those suckers down pretty tight, though.

Gosh, those little vice grips are useful

Jesse Adams · Post by **Jesse Adams** » 1 Feb 2014 7:45 pm

I was using a wrench on mine too. Then I snapped the head off of the screw and now I'm looking for a replacement!

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 2 Feb 2014 4:47 am

Les, the problem with the stop described lies in that it doesn't stop the LEVER, it stops the SHAFT.
That means that one of the most powerful muscles in the body has the opportunity to overpower friction. Twice.
I only know of a couple of drawbacks to MSA's engineering (and for all I know, they chose them to pursue an alternate purpose), and that's one of them.
Most other guitars put a bracket with a threaded rod that actually stops the lever.