The Steel Guitar Forum

Posted: **3 Jun 2002 3:40 pm**

I know steel players like Weldon Myrick who tune everything straight up 440 and always sound perfectly in tune. I have never been able to do this and sound in tune with the group with my Carter,Emmons or Zumsteel. I tune (I believe its called , Just Tunning) and always sound in perfect tune with the group. My question is,how many players out there who play with a group, tune straight up 440??

Posted: **3 Jun 2002 4:51 pm**

At last count, 247 1/2.

Seriously, I tune straight up on the back neck of my Williams, which is tuned to D6th. It sounds okay, even in the studio.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b.gif" width="64" height="64">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (F Diatonic) Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6)

Posted: **3 Jun 2002 5:13 pm**

I always tune both necks to 440 and everything sounds ok.Simple and fast.

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http://hometown.aol.com/damirzanne/damirzanne1.html

Posted: **3 Jun 2002 6:07 pm**

Never Ever tune your pedal steel straight up 440 on all your notes. Train your ear by tuning notes together....just like you would be singing together.....and then look at it on your tuner. Now if it ends up 440 on the open strings and the changes.....then so be it....But I get e-mails all the time asking if they should tune ET(equal temperment)...I say "no" and will never solicite that way to tune. If you tune a certain way and it sounds Ok to you.....all that means is that is where the level of your ear training is......Never ever stop your ear training....by just tuning your steel to a certain formula. As soon as you say it sounds ok to you in the way your tuning....you should also ask someone with a trained ear...."Do I sound in Tune and in Tune with the band???" Because I believe that if someone is tuning to a certain method/formula....."their ear is NOT trained".
Have fun.
Ricky[This message was edited by Ricky Davis on 03 June 2002 at 07:09 PM.]

Posted: **3 Jun 2002 8:23 pm**

Thanks fellas for the Info

Ricky I do tune by a formula that Jeff Newman taught me years ago, actually no string or pull is at 440. But what you said is very interesting about ear training and it really makes sence. Lloyd Greene never uses a tuner, so you are right my friend

Thanks

Posted: **3 Jun 2002 10:47 pm**

Buddy Charleton does not use a tuner either.

I tune by ear till it sounds good with whatever music I am playing. Its good practice to tune by ear. Who cares what it says on a little digital LED ? Music is experienced with your ears not your eyes.

Bob

Posted: **3 Jun 2002 11:29 pm**

Well, normally I tune by ear, which ends up being a variation on Just intonation, however I just got back from a session where I had to tune straight up tempered, including the pedals. The composer is a pianist and has ears I would kill for, so everything has to be dead-on with the piano.

Posted: **4 Jun 2002 1:52 am**

I've been following these heated discussions for years on the forum ,,, just vs tempered tunings. I don't play pedals so I don't have pedals & knees to contend with but I've gotta confess, I guess I just have tin ears but I could never hear the subtlte differences that others seem to hear unless things are way out and the beats stand out obviously. I tune 440 on the tuner and then tweak by ear. Jerry Byrd tunes to strings together by ear 'till it's pleasing. By & large, folks don't sound out of tune on earlier recordings before the advent of electronic tunings. They just used a reference note from a piano or tuning fork and away they went. This whole issue of tuning, cents sharp or flat, etc. just kind of passes me by.

Posted: **4 Jun 2002 8:12 am**

Two things:

"Never Ever tune your pedal steel straight up 440 on all your notes."

"however I just got back from a session where I had to tune straight up tempered, including the pedals. The composer is a pianist and has ears I would kill for, so everything has to be dead-on with the piano."

With all sincere respect, NEVER, EVER tell a player not to tune up to straight 440. CUZ if'n ya do, sooner or later that dude is gonna run across a composer with "ears to kill for" and make him feel like a dope!

Folks, if the steel guitar is EVER accepted on the concert stage, (I do not feel it ever will be), ya better be prepared to change yer waysa livin' podnah

.

Cuz if'n ya don't tune 440, the maestro would throw you; your cadmium plated tinker toy, your too loud amp(s) and yer 'cesories right off that stage.

"And don't let the door hit you in........when you leave"

Lucky for me, I don't play good enough to play by myself, let alone the concert stage; or any other stage, so I don' hafta worry 'bout it. So I kin tune to "dem beats out" all I wonts to!!

But you precious folks are a different story. Sooooo....

carl

Posted: **4 Jun 2002 8:37 am**

It all depends on the context. When you are playing with fixed tuning instruments it can be a different ballgame. Guitars and fiddles can be negotiated with but acoustic and electronic keyboard instruments may require a different approach than what works on the bandstand with a traditional country/western ensemble.

chas,
Was this an acoustic piano? Most pianos are not tuned strictly ET. Whazzupwitdat? Did you just have to match the temperament that particular piano tuner used?

As an aside, I'm not sure I'd wish for 'perfect pitch'. The few people I've met who have it drive me crazy because 99%+ of music they hear drives THEM crazy.

but if they're the boss I guess you gotta pay the cost . . .

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Emmons D-10 9x9, 1971 Dobro

Posted: **4 Jun 2002 8:57 am**

whatever[This message was edited by Bob Hoffnar on 04 June 2002 at 10:15 AM.]

Posted: **4 Jun 2002 11:39 am**

but if they're the boss I guess you gotta pay the cost . . .

That's how it works, the name on the bottom of the check makes the rules.

Larry, the composer is Thomas Newman and the piano is a concert grand. I'm playing steel guitar long tones with complicated samples 'chasing me'. I literally have to watch the tuner while I'm playing to be sure that it's spot on. If you went over to the piano and sat on the keyboard, he could tell you what notes you sat on. Years ago, when I first started working for him, I had a cluster/texture up and he stopped it because there was a D# in it that didn't fit. I had to count down through the strings and yup, there was one in there, couldn't get it with a P or K so I just retuned it. It just makes for another level of difficulty.

But you precious folks are a different story.

Well Carl, if you don't want the job, you don't take the call. It pays union double scale for a 9 - 12 hour day.

Posted: **4 Jun 2002 12:05 pm**

Ok my very first sentence should have "until you"...just before the second sentence.....that's what I mean.
So I'm saying "Train your Ear"....First....then if you have the kind of ear that can play your steel straight up 440 and in tune....so be it....but I'd have to hear it first to believe it....and I've heard players that tune straight up 440(ET)and so far each one I've heard is "out of tune".....
Ricky

Posted: **4 Jun 2002 3:47 pm**

"The best way to have equal temperament of all pedal changes and be in tune with all other instruments is to tune 440. Anything beyond that is a compromise to accommodate the flexing of cabinets and/or what one personally perceives as being in tune (semantics). That would apply to either neck"
~Buddy Emmons~
from the web site "Ask Buddy"
I guess man knows what he`s talking about,if you have to hear it to believe it,get a Buddy Emmons CD

Damir
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http://hometown.aol.com/damirzanne/damirzanne1.html
[This message was edited by Damir Besic on 04 June 2002 at 04:58 PM.]

Posted: **4 Jun 2002 4:29 pm**

Buddy must be out of tune...

Posted: **4 Jun 2002 5:12 pm**

I wish I was out of tune like that

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http://hometown.aol.com/damirzanne/damirzanne1.html

Posted: **4 Jun 2002 5:21 pm**

I can't resist:

In this corner ... representing the ET consortium ... Buddy Emmons.

In the far corner ... representing the JI consortium ... Jerry Byrd

Seriously, as I have stated over in the No Peddlers section (where I belong):
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
I think most us were initially attracted to the steel guitar because of its unique ability to produce EXTENSIVE harmonic overtones ... in agreement with each other... anywhere on the fretboard.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Posted: **4 Jun 2002 5:42 pm**

In this corner ... representing the ET consortium ... Buddy Emmons.

I don't believe that this is a 100% accurate statement. BE has said that he does flatten the G#'s to 438, which is roughly 10 cents, I think. He is adjusting the string (3rd's) that is notoriously the worst offender. Here is a direct quote.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I tune my thirds to 438 just to compensate for a possible drift of that note a cent or two sharp.
For everybody else, no matter how much you quibble over two cents, harmonics, fundamentals, or any other rationale, when your 434 clashes with a 440 in the band, you're gonna lose.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[This message was edited by Jeff Lampert on 04 June 2002 at 07:01 PM.]

Posted: **4 Jun 2002 5:53 pm**

I certainly ment no disrespect: just the opposite actually ... Mentioning anyones name in the same sentence with Jerry Byrd is the highest compliment I know.

My HUMOUROUS attempt was based on the following statement made by Mr. Emmons in a previous thread (That you were a part of Jeff):
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
I tune my thirds to 438 just to compensate for a possible drift of that note a cent or two sharp.
For everybody else, no matter how much you quibble over two cents, harmonics, fundamentals, or any other rationale, when your 434 clashes with a 440 in the band, you're gonna lose.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This can be read in its entirety for the proper context here: http://steelguitarforum.com/Forum5/HTML/003912.html

OOPS... I quess I was postin when you were edittin'.

I understood this statement to say that he was deviating from ET to compensate for a mechanical anomaly NOT as a compromise to JI. This cooresponds to the above Damir quote from Mr. Emmons.

[This message was edited by Rick Aiello on 04 June 2002 at 07:04 PM.]

Posted: **4 Jun 2002 6:01 pm**

http://www.buddyemmons.com/_board/00000406.htm

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http://hometown.aol.com/damirzanne/damirzanne1.html

Posted: **4 Jun 2002 6:37 pm**

For the record:

The thirds that keep being dwelled upon are not the worst "offenders" of the JI vs. ET "war".

The D (b7th) in the E9 tuning has a JI value that is 18 cents SHARP of ET. (The JI G# is 14 cents flat of ET).

That D# (7th) has a JI value that is 12 cents flat of ET (admittly not as "notorious" as the G# ... but certainly a force to reckon with)

Since "both necks" were mentioned by Mr. Emmons ...

The A (6th) in the C6 tuning has a JI value that is 16 cents flat of ET.

If these strings frequencies are not "adjusted" ... in my limited mind ... you are playin' ET ... but as I often say in these kinda threads... Who am I anyway

Posted: **5 Jun 2002 1:37 am**

Buddy does "Not" tune ET....and where ever you got that from....you were mislead.
If Buddy tuned an E note and G# note on his E9th tuning....to equal temperment and played them together....they would sound "out of tune" to him......He knows it; I know it; and many others know it; but obviously everyone doesn't know it......so get your ear training devices and techniques out and Get to Work.
Ok all that up there sounds somewhat confortational....and that isn't my nature and don't mean it to be....but I'll say it one more time as a teacher(and if you don't want to be taught...don't read this next part).
Learn to listen to notes/tones ,playing/singing together. Learn to tune your pedal steel by ear; then see where they lay on your tuner for when you don't get to tune by ear.
Continue to work with intonation by playing your steel to a fixed tone, sounding in the background.
I won't respond on this particular thread anymore...as I've said and explained my theory and technique of what I've learned from my Mentors(yes Buddy is one of my Mentors).....and if one wants to know more of this from me...you can e-mail me, as I have several big attachments with my techniques explained....that of course I've learned from my Mentors....but have put them on paper/computer....for my students, so I can pass on what I've learned from the great ones I've learned from.
Ricky

Posted: **5 Jun 2002 4:00 am**

Rick,I got that FROM Buddy,what you can see if you click on that hyper link that I posted.Just don`t tell me that you know better then Buddy how he tune his guitars,please.Thanks.
Damir
p.s.
maybe YOU need some ear training devices here.Sorry.

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http://hometown.aol.com/damirzanne/damirzanne1.html
[This message was edited by Damir Besic on 05 June 2002 at 05:01 AM.]

Posted: **5 Jun 2002 4:48 am**

Amen Damir!!

And, Buddy would tune ET if it were not for cabinet flex, temperature changes etc. His words in case ya haven't hoid

In otherwords, AFTER years of Buddy tuning JI like most of us do, he changed. Yes, he changed and he admitted it right here on this forum. So did Weldon Myrick and a few other players whose ears have become soo cultured they are learning what many concert pianist and others have know from becoming "finished" musicians.

Point of interest: In 1998, this ET/JI (verbal diahrea) scenario surfaced on this forum. Buddy joined with some very poignant posts as he enlightened us fans on what he was NOW doing.

Also, there was a not so complimentary post that ensued after Buddy's post. It more or less implied that Buddy was in error! And then an ever more stringent NOT so complimentary post ensued with BE as the author.

Later that year, I was walking near Buddy's both in StLouis, and he motioned for me to come over and look at something. AS I did, I saw he had a card sitting on his guitar and it said

"3rd's-439.5"

I, and several others that were there, had a ball with this. And of course Buddy was smiling from ear to ear as ONLY he can do. One of many treasured moments this man has left me with. I do love him to pieces.

Before I left the booth, I said to Buddy,

"Wrong again!" he laughed aloud and again thrilled me to death. For ONLY he and I knew what the statement was referring to. And to top it off, several times after that, we would meet and again the words,

"Wrong again".

We would both bust out laughing. Oh how my life has been blessed by such precious moments.

God, please richly bless BE. And ALL of you,

carl

[This message was edited by C Dixon on 05 June 2002 at 06:06 AM.]

Posted: **5 Jun 2002 5:29 am**

There's nothing like a good ole tuning discussion to get the blood pumping. I tried tuning straight up for a few years because I was told that Buddy did but I never thought it sounded in tune although I never got any complaints. I started tuning the guitar to itself or a kind of Just Tuning I guess and it sounds much better to me now. Still no complaints from the band members so who said they could all hear? After a bunch of e-mails from one of our noted members he told me that Buddy tunes the beats out or Just Tunes so who knows? I'm think he's tried just about everything at this point like most of are now. I've read most of that stuff on his website and by the time I read it he probably changed his method for all I know. If it sounds good to your ear and the people you play with why not stick with that?

The Steel Guitar Forum

Tuning straight up 440??

Tuning straight up 440??