steel guitar makers are like gasoline makers

Joseph Barcus · Post by **Joseph Barcus** » 30 May 2002 3:03 am

seems they just keep getting higher and higher and all in all the most one should sell for is 12 t0 1500.00. these guitars that u see prices 2500 and higher are just like the gas prices but thats just the way i see it if this makes anyone mad big deal lol

Jim Johnson · Post by **Jim Johnson** » 30 May 2002 3:25 am

I agree about the prices of guitars. They
are similar to auto prices also.

ROBERT MYERS · Post by **ROBERT MYERS** » 30 May 2002 3:28 am

Joseph, I know what you mean about prices. I'm in to classic cars and prices on them are just the same. Like I told a guy the other day when he asked how much my 68 Torino conv was worth. Only what someone is willing to pay. Joe Maphis once held my 69 Fender Mustang, what does that make it worth?

------------------
Bob Myers Derby S10 3&4

Johan Jansen · Post by **Johan Jansen** » 30 May 2002 3:40 am

I don't agree with that!
All pro-guitars are handmade and not produced on a production-line in Korea or China.
All the hours spend to build a steelguitar, all the service you get, the first quality materials. If you compare it with other instruments it should have been priced like a piano.
JJ

Frank Parish · Post by **Frank Parish** » 30 May 2002 5:18 am

How come Mandolins are so high compared to guitars?

John Lacey · Post by **John Lacey** » 30 May 2002 5:23 am

I've personally been in and seen both Jimmy Crawford's and Paul Franklin Sr.'s "mansions". Oh ya, there just cleaning up on us.

Jim Smith · Post by **Jim Smith** » 30 May 2002 5:31 am

I also disagree. When we were building Dekleys back in the late 70's to early 80's, our cost to build a D-10 with 8&4 was about $900. This included parts, labor, factory rent and utilities.

Back then most builders sold only to retail at the standard discount of 50%. With a D-10 retailing at $1999, we sold the guitar for $1000 and only made $100 profit per guitar!

The dealers would often have the guitars sold before we shipped and could make $600-$800 profit just for handling the guitar.

Today hardly any builders sell through dealers, and of those that do, most sell direct as well. That raises their profit margin significantly, which allows them to stay in business.

Considering how all associated costs have risen, I consider today's steels to be as good or even better bargain than in the past.

------------------
Jim Smith jimsmith94@charter.net
-=Dekley D-12 10&12=-
-=Fessenden Ext. E9/U-13 8&8=-

Jim Johnson · Post by **Jim Johnson** » 30 May 2002 5:36 am

disregard my comments. steel guitars are \
not at all like automobiles.
jim

Jim Palenscar · Post by **Jim Palenscar** » 30 May 2002 6:19 am

Just try making one sometime of the quality that you can purchase one- you will quickly change your tune- and be happy that you are not in the business unless you enjoy working for free

Dennis Manuel · Post by **Dennis Manuel** » 30 May 2002 6:22 am

I am sure Bob will move this from buy and sell to steel guitar but since it is still here I will say my 2 cents .
Steel guitars if they are looked after, last a very long time and hold their value. The old Emmons Push Pull guitars for example are worth more today than what they cost new and well worth it. Sho Bud and MSA guitars fall into this category also.
Steel guitars sounds like a "Sound" investment to me.
Can't remember when I paid so little for so much lasting enjoyment.[This message was edited by Dennis Manuel on 30 May 2002 at 07:27 AM.]

Bob Blair · Post by **Bob Blair** » 30 May 2002 8:00 am

I think most if not all people who are in the business of making pedal steel guitars could be making as much and in most cases more money in other jobs that don't involve the same level of risk and investment. Compare the cost of a fine hand-made acoustic guitar, violin, or mandolin, or a reasonably high-end electric guitar. Compare the cost of professional calibre brass and woodwind instruments. Sure, a good pedal steel costs a lot of money, but if it didn't there simply would not be any pedal steels.

Luthiers (and people who make pedal steels fall into that category) must be in it for something other than the money, or they wouldn't be in the game. The people that build our instruments are skilled craftspersons who have spent their lives learning what they know, and they surely deserve decent compensation for what they do.

Ed Mooney · Post by **Ed Mooney** » 30 May 2002 8:23 am

IMHO,All you have to do is look at a factory made $2500 Les Paul and then look at a hand made $2500 pedal steel. Sorry, there is no comparison. Ed

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 30 May 2002 8:38 am

The only relevant issue is "supply and demand" economics. Our capitalist system entitles any entrepreneur to sell his product for any price he chooses to. If the product is too expensive, then demand will decrease and he will go out of business. If he stays in business and turns a profit, then the product is priced correctly.

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 30 May 2002 8:56 am

Every time I sit down at my steel, I go on "vacation". Blood pressure is reduced. Stress washed away. How much is that worth?

Jim Smith · Post by **Jim Smith** » 30 May 2002 9:25 am

Most builders are definitely not getting rich. As an example of how close to the wire they live, a pedal steel builder I know had to cancel his trip to the Tulsa show because payment he was promised for a guitar he sold on consignment three months ago still hadn't arrived by the time he was scheduled to leave.

BobG · Post by **BobG** » 30 May 2002 9:35 am

Every time I sit down at my steel, I go on "vacation".

If I played as well as you ... maybe.
With me it's mostly a hard day at the office!!

------------------
Bob Grado, Williams D10 (lefty), Peavey 1000,
Profex ll.

Glenn Suchan · Post by **Glenn Suchan** » 30 May 2002 9:44 am

Ed, I agree with your comments about a $2500 Les Paul. How 'bout that $11000 Gibson Super 400 CES? It's another assembly-line axe. What about $2500 Strat's.

Gibson and Fender have no conscience about what they ask for mediocre instruments.

Flame-proof suite on? Check!

Keep on pickin'!
Glenn

Robert Todd · Post by **Robert Todd** » 30 May 2002 10:09 am

Gel I own a 2700 Factory built Gibson ES 335, and it's one of the prettiest looking and sounding guitars I've owned, and Lord knows i've owned a few (hundred).

I also own a couple of Steel guitars that cost in tyhat smae price range, and all three instruments are fine pieces of craftsmanship.

I thionk you'd fined no steel gitar maker is getting rich. I've visietd Emmons severa; times and the factory is very small. I can't imagine what the Fulakwa or even the Caerter factories look like, they just don't sell that many steels to make it a great business.

Post by **Joey Ace** » 30 May 2002 10:29 am

You can "visit" both the Fulawka and Carter "factories" on line.

Both web sites have a tour.

I'm moving this to Pedal Steel.

Tore Blestrud · Post by **Tore Blestrud** » 30 May 2002 10:47 am

Wake up and smell the coffee. You pay less then 25 % for the gasoline than we do in Europe, and I am pretty shure that soon you will have to pay a lot more for the gasolin in U.S. than today (when the Midle-East explodes, or U.S. realizes that Saudi Arabia is one of the worst regimes of the world - not an ally). The steelguitar prices are thankfully not exposed to world politics when it comes to pricing, mostly quality and demand (i hope). Sorry, out of topic.
Regards.

chas smith · Post by **chas smith** » 30 May 2002 10:58 am

I've rebuilt a number of guitars and I have designed and built several others. I've seen photos of the Anapeg, and given the visible quality of that guitar and it's $6000 price tag, I'm confident the builder is NOT even making minimum wage. When I rebuilt my Professional, I spent over 200 hrs. A good amount of that was on the drafting table and I don't have CNC on my Bridgeport, still, those skills have to be worth more than minimum wage.

I don't think pedal guitars are overpriced at all if you think about all of the work that goes into making all of the individual parts and then assembling them.

Rick Collins · Post by **Rick Collins** » 30 May 2002 10:58 am

Marketing:
The value of something is based on what the consumer is willing to pay for it.

How about "welfare steel"?
Set up a government agency that would manufacture steel guitars and distribute them "free".

I bet this would increase the popularity of the steel.

Joseph V. Sapp · Post by **Joseph V. Sapp** » 30 May 2002 11:23 am

Well this should start some fires:
Not defending the Builders, but lets look back when Shot and Buddy were together building some Fantastic Steels. Yes, for that time period, but with the advent of the computer age, tooling, machineing, and production getting to the point where, digital calipers are needed to see the difference of whats acceptable or not, let alone the costs of the machines, and lets not forget the Labor cost. I think were getting a fair deal to say the least. When I sit behind my Derby SD-10, 4X5 , listen to the tone, see the quality, and know when I hit a pedal or knee , its 100% on the money. Sure,,,I guess we can have a Steel built for alot less money, it all depends on your standards. Sure,,we can fill our tank at the station that sells regular for 99.9, but then add in the cost of Dry gas to remove the water, the damage to your 30K SUV sure isnt worth the hastle !!! Old Henry Ford bult cars alot cheeper as well, What would he say if he saw the sticker price and sat behind a new T-Bird today ?????? I dont see much of a difference in the Steel Guitar.
I think its called progress?? Something we cant change, and as Jim Cohen Said,,,"Whats it worth" .. in my book its priceless . Weather you play Fessy, Derby, Emmons, Carter, or custom JCH, the techs and specs behind each Steel I think is far more than we'd like to admit. The builders arent doing this for fun. and in the end, each and every picker regardless of what leval we play on benifit by each and every penny spent by those builders. Bless each and every one of those builders for giving us the quality.

Joseph

Derby SD-10 4X5, Nashville 400, Fender twin
Profex ll, Lexicon MPX 100, Boss DR-5

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 30 May 2002 11:58 am

In life, many things appear to be over priced. It is interesting to note, that usually the person saying that knows the least about it.

Kinda reminds me of the ole saying.

"Talk is cheap!"

carl

Mike Weirauch · Post by **Mike Weirauch** » 30 May 2002 12:23 pm

apparently Joe has found these figures in the same orifice that his head resides, where the sun doesn't shine! Obviously his time is totally invaluable therefore any compensation he might receive/received for labor/service performed should be given back to the person who wrote the check which would also include any welfare or social security compensation. In short, Joe feels that everyone should be able to live for free! I seriously doubt that there is any steel guitar manufactured today that would bottom out for much less than $1,000 not including any wages or labor, only parts. The largest manufacturer of steel guitars will produce somewhere in the neighborhood of 200 pro models a year. If they cost them $1,000 to make and they sold them for $1,500, that would give them a big profit of $100,000. Now let's say rent on the building that they are manufactured in runs approximately $2,500 a month, that would be $30,000 taken away from the gross profit leaving $70,000, taxable. Now, utilities are going to cost about a grand a month and insurance is going to run that also so there is another $24,000 removed leaving $46,000. Obviously it takes more than 1 person to make 200 guitars a year so you are going to have to pay outside wages. One person working 40 hours a week for $10 per hour would muster around $20,000 which leaves $26,000. Wait, we haven't taken any taxes out of this profit yet! With rent being a deduction, the rest of the profit is taxable which would be around $23,000 leaving $3,000 for state and local taxes. Gee, where did all that profit go? Where's the big bucks? Well Joe, those big bucks that are being made on these over priced guitars is hiding up that same orifice where your head resides. You know, where the sun doesn't shine. Get a clue!!!