The Steel Guitar Forum

When I decided I was going to learn the PSG almost two years ago, I had a Carter Starter that had been in my stuff for a while and a Fender 1000. I figured out how to tune the Carter but it was pretty junky, when you own Fender Strats and Tele's, PRS and Gibson and Guilds. Top drawer stuff.
So I took a couple of lessons on Skype, which was a little problematical at the time and decided I needed a better instrument. So with the help of SGF I located a beautiful MSA "Universal" and had to have it. I have since upgraded that to a MSA "Millennium" Carbon Fiber U12.
Knowing what I think I know now, and still having met less than a handful of Steel Players in the flesh, I would have bought a quality E9, S10 3+4. The reason being is that almost all the learning material out there is written for that guitar. Having to think through what you think you are supposed to know adds another layer of difficulty. Once you learn a little you can say, no problem, but I think experienced players forget how difficult learning the "humiliator" can be. People can say ignore the extra knee levers and pedals, but that is easier said than done, at least for me.
So things are coming together now, but it has been a rocky road to say the least. So my advice too any newbie who might read this: "Get the best quality S10 you can afford and keep it simple." You can always go up later and you will always get your money out of a good guitar.

Hmm. Well, I am about to (boldly) go beyond the Starter. I don't think it held me up much. I did fix the F lever with a #400 screw ( I think that's the right designator ). Once that happened, I ended up being able to hit just about anything a 3p+4k guitar could do, IMO. Er, the guitar was no longer the bottlneck anyway - the nut between the steel and the seat is. Pedal and knee lever travel was just something I got used to. I think the Starter *sounds* great. Initially, just moving your legs like that takes a few months. Took me 7 years to get here...

I'm also trying an MSA U12 first. I figured it should be a "kit". I'll start it out as E9-plus-two and circle out from there. Maybe that's weird; I dunno. But I've kept swinging the LKR in and making big ole clusters for the last year or two, and I wanna see where that takes me.

At least with a Strat/Tele, electric guitars were always a least-cost solution made with cheap wood and car paint. Ditto the amps; taken directly/indirectly from standard designs, I find we frequently end up back with the original, simpler designs.

Not putting the Carter Starter down, as I am sure many fine players started with them, it is just that everything on it was loose and made inexpensively. Amazingly when I went to sell it, it took 15 minutes on Craigs List for $795.00 and I had three back up offers.

I started on an S-10, many, many moons ago. It was a Birdseye maple Maverick with 3+1.
At the time, it was a lot to handle with all of those strings. After two years, I progressed to a pro model with 5+4. I played that for 26 years. Now, for 10 years, I've been playing a U-12 with 7+5 and I know I'm done with changing steels. I personally believe, that, an S-10 with 3+4 is perfectly adequate for a beginner to learn on and progress. You might want to add 1more pedal and knee lever later on, but, that's personal preference and acquired knowledge. There's so much music to be played on with an S-10, it'll keep any player busy for years. If I had started on a U-12 or an Extended 12, I don't think my progress would have come as quick. There's so much to learn with 10 strings, there's really no need to add more confusion. I switched to a U-12 because I wanted to experiment with different voicings and dabble into a different style of playing. I'm quite happy with my choice and it has sent me done another learning path, which, will take some time to master. All of this, is just my opinion and not gospel.
As to the Carter Starter. I was teaching a student, who, had bought a brand new starter. He must have been lucky because his steel played and sounded really good.I was impressed with it, actually. Of course, it was brand new and wasn't time worn. I've seen and played others that were more of a hindrance than a plus. I guess mileage varies. There are several other beginner steels, that, are much better in today's market. If I was beginning today, I would try to get the best I could for the money, so, I wouldn't be burdened with fighting an ill playing instrument. There's enough to learn without being behind the 8 ball to start with.

I started with a mechanically perfect and cosmetically challenged MSA Classic Lacquer S10 3x4 that I bought in a private sale for half the price of the shobud coat hanger model at the local pawn shop. That was 15 years ago....! Wow, time flies. I was a young'un then.

Got the basic ABCDEFG thing kindof figured out, inversion slides, some scales going - then decided I wanted to venture into C6, but was a little overwhelmed by the sight of a D10, so I got into an MSA Vintage XL with 7x5 universal tuning...An ebay win out of nashville.

Most valuable thing I did was attend a seminar with Joe Wright as the instructor - got my picking and pick blocking going well early on, and that's been an immeasurably good habit to have gotten into early and not having to break bad picking and blocking technique.

Niels, I've only been doing this for about 5 years or so, and the "hump" was at the 3 year point. Before that, I think you have a point, but afterwards, you can easily overcome the fact that most stuff is tabbed for a S10 without breaking sweat.

I got a U12 so I don't have to carry so much weight around, got it last year. There's no difficulty interpreting anything for an S10, and it's way lighter to carry to gigs than a D10. Plus, when I finally get my head around the C6 stuff, it's all there ready.

Meanwhile, I have an S10 with extra good low bottom end notes!

Thanks Will,
Yes I realize that point. The point I was trying to make is that the Universal adds another layer of difficulty that is not necessary to learning the PSG and probably adds to the frustration factor. The other point being that when playing C6 on a B6/E9 is just a matter of lowering your E's and moving ups semitone, I wonder how many Universals are played as a strict B6?

Niels Andrews wrote:...The point I was trying to make is that the Universal adds another layer of difficulty that is not necessary to learning the PSG and probably adds to the frustration factor.

I'm sorry that you had this expierience, but I have to totally disagree with this.
If a guy has a desire to play both 9th and 6th based songs, and has an instructor that can jump start thier learning, there is no reason they can't be playing both 9th and 6th style on their first day on an S12U.

fwiw, I played S12U in a Swing band for a few years and played out of the B6th mode 90% of the time.
My feeling is that learning/playing the standard 6th pedals/levers is actually way easier than learning/playing E9th.
For some reason the 6th tuning seems to be shrouded in mystery, wether its an S10, D10, or S12U...
Not sure why.

I guess my point differs from yours and is more like, if you want to play Country, Country-rock, Rock/Jam-Band, Swing/Be-Bop, even Classical or Jazz, and you want a single neck, don't think twice about getting an S12U.
If you want to play Jazz primarily, and want a single neck, maybe consider a Bb6th S12U.

And to clarify my point Pete when you live somewhere there are no teachers and you depend on the internet and published material, I think the less complex the better.

Please understand, it's hard for me to buy that because I lived in Montana and Wyoming when I started on S12U in the early 80's, and did not have a local instructor.
I had Jeff Newmans "E9/B6 Universal - Volume-1" book/tape, and Asleep At The Wheel and Commander Cody songs in my head.

I agree with you that if you can only get an S10, go for it. You can still play alot of Swing on an S10 E9th.

There must be some instructors within 100 miles of your area, no???
I know a guy named Dave ??? who plays Universal in San Fran. He plays with Joe Goldmarks wifes swing band (can't recall his last name right now).
Might be a good contact for you.

Well I guess I am not as gifted as you are! Glad it came so easy for you , there are some of us that are not blessed as you are .
Cheers

I assure you I'm not gifted.
I just feel its wrong to tell beginners to not consider an S12U.

I often direct folks to Larry Bells website for an S12U primer:
http://www.larrybell.org/id23.htm

All I have to say is this tuning made the 6th side easier to follow without giving up the B6th (or E9).

http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopi ... ight=jet10

Most E9 instructional materials work fine!
I'm using a S-10 4x4.


John

Niels, I'll have to look you up next time I run up to Pacific Grove.

I started on a LDG 3 & 4 then got a MSA D10 .. with c6 and e9 part of the thinking process it was easy to move to a u12 ..unless you are a musical whizz kid you will need to completely understand the fundamentals of e9 and c6 before launching into a u12 ... at least for me that was the process .. the change is mind boggling at first but gets easier the longer you do it.

I started on E9/B6 Uni, after some discussion, including some with Pete Burak - I converted an S12 ext E9 to Uni (thank you, Lynn Stafford)

Realized I didn't have a clue, despite fairly deep musical knowledge.

Called Reece Anderson, and flew to Dallas for a couple days of tutelage

Repeated this, along with several phone calls

(As a pro musician and music teacher, I've never had a lot of money, but I realized that spending it going to see Reece was a smart move)

Ended up switching to Bb6 Uni - never never going back

I am very glad I did not start w an S10. I would have been profoundly unsatisfied.

This is all just my personal experience, and not in any way arguing against your point.

pete..is it dave phillips you're thinking of?

chris ivey wrote:pete..is it dave phillips you're thinking of?

Yes, Thanks.

Again, just sayin... Similar to Christopher wanting to play Jazz, If a guy wants to take up Steel because they like Asleep at the Wheel and related swing styles, don't start him on an S10 or Ext E9 S12.
I personally think S12U is great for both swing and country styles.

Niels, just curious, what songs got you interested in playing Steel?
I know that MSA Carbon-Fiber S12U is like one of the best S12Us ever made.

I guess this thread got off track. I like my U12, I bought it after spending a week with Reece Anderson. I also have a MSA Super Slide 12 string for the same reason. I am pleased where I am at with the PSG, but it has taken a lot of time and money to get this far.
I believe for someone starting out, especially with out an instructor, a mechanically sound S-10 is the place to start. I also believe that people who have been playing for many years lose sight of this.

I thought I was speaking to your point

But

If it wasn't clear, to be clearer

I think it completely depends on the needs of the student

If your goal is just to learn standard E9, yes, an S10 seems fine

If your goal includes swing and jazz styles, a S12 Uni could be a great option, and in my view a much better one than an S10 E9

what christopher says makes perfect sense to me. he obviously has a direction in mind and the universal from the beginning is going to suit that perfectly.
i think starting on a universal 12 puts all music at your fingertips. then it is up to you to figure it out a step at a time, but the instrument is there and ready.
neils evidently finds more comfort in a simpler view. in time he may realize the benefit of the u12 that he has available.
of course, if you have a 12string at your disposal to learn on and find it confusing, you can always take the 2 bottom strings off for a couple years til you can handle it.

Everyone comes from a different knowledge base in their musical background, and the direction they want to head in.

The quickest way to get musical validation on the B6 side of a universal is to put some swing backing tracks on, and start hitting pedals and frets until you see where things fit within the basic progressions, and the friends will hear you the next day and think you're a pro. For basic stuff, once the basic positions and pedals are figured - the B6 tuning plays itself. And it sounds HUGE and sophisticated. Its an amazing voice to have.

Which brings me to the major drawback of the u12 with the typical 5x7 newman...missing most of the "six styled" lever moves that a stretched out D10 has...and so I'm seriously considering moving into a D-neck. I want hughey's copedent.

Well, it seems like there's a lot of weight in the direction of learning on a U-12 and I can appreciate the versatility of the U-12, immensely. But, having said that, I think most beginners are attracted to the sound of the E9th country steel first. The S-10 with 3+4 or 5 suits that perfectly with about 18 note changes, on average. You can play a lot of swing on it. I did it for years, albeit minus the low notes, but, the basic sound was there. If, later on, a player wants to learn a more advanced avenue of playing, a U-12 certainly fits the bill. Of course, a full loaded up D-10 is probably the ultimate, but, we're not talking about that. Anyway, I still think a good S-10 is perfectly well suited for a beginner to learn on. It has plenty of changes with just enough apprehension without being over powering.
JMHO.

I think Christopher hit it on the head, AL depends on what you want to play, swing, Jazz, country if all of this is what you want to play, S-12 or D-10 is where you go, it makes since to me to go to S-12.. Finding teachers for the S-12 is a bit more difficult for sure,

Niels,
it's a long and sometimes hard journey learning to play steel guitar, You have been to the top of the mountain for a teacher, and now he's not with us, Please look me up in Az, and lets sit down and talk about what your needing ...Maurice was one of a kind , Teacher, person, and friend, I miss him everyday, I had him as a teacher for 43 years, and after 43 years, I still have so much more to learn,

Tom
You are never going to emulate a 9x9 D10 setup on a 7x5 U12.

A single neck guitar can have 9 or 10 levers if that's what you need.

You have the same option of a center cluster of levers if that's what you need.

I have G# to G which is the identical function as A to Ab on
C6 and the B pedal is A to Bb and 1/2 A pedal is C to C#. Not as convenient as a dedicated lever, but all those functions do double duty on a U12. I've known U12 players who add the center cluster w/ some of those functions duplicated more like the ergonomics of a D10.

Not a limitation of the tuning. IMHO

Tom Gorr wrote:
...Which brings me to the major drawback of the u12 with the typical 5x7 newman...missing most of the "six styled" lever moves that a stretched out D10 has...and so I'm seriously considering moving into a D-neck. I want hughey's copedent.

Tom, With all due respect, aren't you the guy who wants to make the S12U thing work on a 5x5???
fwiw, I think you've missinterpreted Jeff Newmans intent with regard to his S12U setup.
It was never meant to even duplicate a D10, and his basic S12U copedant is actually a 7x4 with no LKR.
Jeff's thing was to give a student a single neck Universal tuning that would allow him to duplicate anything he would need to play Steel in a gigging band. For example, regarding the D10 standard P4, Jeff would say, "Nobody uses it anymore"... meaning, there is no song that you would play on the bandstand that you can't play without that pedal.

Larry Bell shows on his website that you can duplicate 100% of the standard D10 changes on an S12U.

I have seen a lot of loaded-up 12 strings of various flavors, so I'm thinking you can get Hughey's setup on an S12U if you wanted it.
It is listed in the thread I linked below, along with several other C6th pedal/lever setups.

But you have to understand, in the end, it's not a D10.
As I have said before, S12U is like the Corvette of the industry... You're not going to pull stumps or pick up a load of hay with one like an F250 (D10), but they are fun as heck to burn around town in!

Some standard D10 setups:
http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopi ... s+copedant