The Steel Guitar Forum

I have read and heard of Emmons and others
using 440 tuning on all strings on he E9th
neck, I tried it and was wayout of tune.
Has anyone else used this 440 tuning, and how do you like it.


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I believe BE tunes his 3rds (G#s) a few cents flat. It's pretty much a must in order to sound in tune (tempered) with yourself. Pedals/knees would have to be tempered also.
Dennis

Joe writes,

"I tried it and was wayout of tune."

Well, is it really out of tune? Some say that 440 is IN tune. It depends a lot on how one comes up through their musical background. Plus, years of ear training.

Because of the PSG's unique "overtones", it tends to sound in tune when there are little to NO beats between any two strings in most cases (7th's, Dim's and aug's excepted). This is called Just Intonation tuning. But this is NOT the same for all instruments. For example a piano can sound quite pleasant with beats between notes.

Also, as one's ear becomes more and more cultured listening to all kinds of music, beats between notes (primarily 3rd's) do not sound as much out of tune as they once did.

This can easily be proven with a common scenario. Tune your steel 'til it sounds perfectly IN tune to you by yourself.

THEN, sit in with a band and immediately it sounds OUT of tune. The reason is; many of the band instruments are tuned (because they have NO choice) so there are beats between notes. Then, the clash with the steel sounds out of tune.

Further proof is the old E chord versus C chord "tail chase" on a regular guitar. Tune it til it sounds perfectly in tune for the E chord. The C chord will sound terrible. The reverse is also true. A compromise is necessary here.

In other words, in order for the E AND the C chord to sound reasonably IN tune there must be beats between the 3rds in the E chord AND the C chord. Or put more succinctly, "tuning to (or close) to 440"!

These two examples will plague and frustrate a steel guitar player forever, unless he understands what is happening. And lives with it.

It is why several players (having tuned JI) for soooo many years, now tune closer and closer to ET (440 reference). Weldon Myrick tunes 440 straight up for all strings with AND without pedals/knee levers. And yet he tuned JI for 40 yrs! Go figure.

It is ALSO why many pianists listening to a "perfectly in tune" PSG will comment,

"Your steel is FLAT!!". Now why would they feel that way and WE feel it is IN tune? It's the SAME sound. Just different ears.

You are correct if you say it sounds out of tune when you tune 440. However, how an instrument sounds does NOT make it IN or OUT of tune.

It depends.

God bless you,

carl

Joe, go to Jeff Newman's website www.jeffran.com. He has some tuning charts that will show you how to tune your guitar. You will notice that he tunes no strings to 440 on the e9th. They will be either sharp or flat. You will need some sort of tuner that reads in cents or hertz digits.

<SMALL>However, how an instrument sounds does NOT make it IN or OUT of tune. </SMALL>

Wheeooo !

Bob

Carl wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><HR><SMALL>This can easily be proven with a common scenario. Tune your steel 'til it sounds perfectly IN tune to you by yourself.

THEN, sit in with a band and immediately it sounds OUT of tune.</SMALL><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>That's simply not true in my experience, Carl. If I sound in tune unaccompanied, and my A note is right, my guitar does sound in tune with the band. On stage or in the studio - it works just fine.

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<img align=left src="http://b0b.com/coolb0b2.gif" border="0"><small>               Bobby Lee</small>
-b0b-   <small> quasar@b0b.com </small>
-System Administrator

Wheeoo (to the infinite power...)

If I'm recording to a track that has no acoustic or stringed instruments--all synths--I usually have to retune my steel closer to 440. Otherwise I'm closer to the pure thirds on my G#, C#, and E# (which, as the third of the chord C# major, is twice as flat as the C#).

Hello Joe,

I read your post and it is a subject that I had to reply on. First, I have never claimed to be much of a steel player but I love it too much to give it up. I have however been lucky enough to spend a lot of time around some incredible steel players, too many to list here. To my ear, and what sounds the most pleasing to me, is when the steel is tuned to be in tune with itself which means that all strings cannot be tuned "straight up" with the tuner and that the thirds need to be slightly flatted, etc. I have to agree with b0b on this, in my experiences this will sound in tune with the rest of the band if they are in tune themselves. However, this does require the constant moving slightly above and below the fret-lines and in some cases even slanting the bar to compensate on some inversions, etc. It is a pain but just part of playing the instrument and very worth the effort to me.

I have heard way too many cases of taking tuning methods that are more of the "all strings straight up" variations or the "sharpened thirds" approach and over-compensating with them to the point of sounding just horribly out of tune even on open strings. Like pulling teeth to listen to. Then when you push the pedals down it gets even more out of tune, severe beats everywhere....just dissonant as can be. It can sound like hell and I've wondered how that kind of harsh tuning can ever become pleasant. The "ear training over time" only makes sense to me if you're training your ear to recognize and hone in on true harmony,which is definitely tempered. Not to step on any toes because I am nobody but to me, if it's out of tune with itself how can it be in tune with the band? I guess that approach means kind of "shooting in the middle" and being partly in and partly out of tune with the entire picture the whole time. That might work for some guys and that's their option but I just can't take it!

I think you are on the right track with wanting to hear the tempered tuning. It's a lot more work, granted, because I'm compensating above and below the fret constantly and slanting and so forth, but if it sounded better and more in tune to play on barbed-wire pedals...I'd have bloody feet!

Again, it's just my humble observation and this is a much debated topic. It's an individual call and I try to respect all points of view. There's no real right or wrong here. I just know that this is how the most in-tune players I know tune their axes and they always sound in tune to me and the players around here that I respect the most. Hope I haven't insulted anyone. It's just one opinion. The sad truth is that it's never really, totally in tune everywhere, no matter what!! Yikes!!!

Bobby

*<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Gene Jones on 01 May 2002 at 04:15 PM.]</p></FONT>

The issue always seems to me to be that if we can't tune equal-tempered (straight 440) because it sounds so out of tune, then how come 6-string guitarists and pianists, who have no choice, do play straight 440 and sound great. Carl suggested it's the steel overtones. Why is that? Or is just because we never learn to play or develop our ear that way since we have a choice, and most choose JI? Why can't we play 440 when they can???

I have played six string guitar longer than steel. Contrary to popular believe a good many six string players will only use an electronic tuner for convenience in a noisy club. Any guitar be it flatop or electric of any style has it's own unique charactaristics and is not a "perfect" instrument. It can't be in tune on every string every fret if tuned straight 440 some adjustments are necessary.

For recording or solo playing I take a great deal of time tuning the octaves, 5ths and 3rds on adjacent strings to ear after getting a reference tone.

We six string players don't have the luxury of playing slightly off the fret. But I have watched some very proffesional players who
unconsciously bend the strings to adjust for intonation.

"quote:
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However, how an instrument sounds does NOT make it IN or OUT of tune.
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Wheeooo !

Bob

You are CORRECT!

Thanks for pointing the error out.

I should have added "to one's ears" between the words "sounds" and "does".

carl

"Carl suggested it's the steel overtones. Why is that?"

The answer is:

It is the overtones (harmonics of played notes) that distinguish the difference in sound of one instrument versus another. Most people can easily tell it was a piano that played a given note from say a Trumpet. Or any other instrument. Why is this if they play the exact same note?

When a note is played one hears MORE than just the note played. Each instrument gives out a certain number of discernable harmonics (overtones) and the level plus number of these overtones is different for EACH instrument.

Pianos and regular guitars (among other instruments) have little choice if any, in tuning. They simply are tuned straight up or very close to it. Because a steel guitar uses a straight bar, it was very easy from the onset, to tune EACH chord (each fret) for no beats (E13th tuning excepted).

It was not until the advent of pedal/knee lever combinations that the dilemma most other instruments face entered its ugly head. The first example is strings 1 and 7 (pedals up versus down).

From that day, the scenario of trial and error, hours of frustrated tuning efforts and debate (such as this thread) abounds.

But this is NOT new. I have read that Beethoven was so determined to get around the problem he designed a piano around his "thesis". But it could only play in one key! Chet Atkins once said on stage, "If I EVER get this Git'-tar in tune, I am going to solder it!! "

Jeff brings up a most poignant point. WHY is it that we hold to JI when other instruments have NO choice?

I tune JI. Always have and always will. I can't stand to play it straight up. But that does NOT make it correct.

The greatest player I ever heard (outside BE), has his thirds (to my ear) SOOO sharp, I cannot stand to play his guitar without flatting them. Yet when HE plays, it is simply music from heaven. WHY????

Debating this will go on forever. But, we still come back to the fact that many steel guitar players tune "OUT OF TUNE" with the rest of the musical world. Why is this?

carl

God invented just intonation (JI). That's why it sounds so good.

Man invented equal temperament (ET) to accomodate the diatonic system of music, another of man's inventions, in a variety of "keys".

The human ear will resolve the unnatural intervals of ET to their JI counterparts. It's what we want to hear. We are God's creatures, after all.

Guitars and pianos don't sustain notes very long. The fleeting memory of the decaying notes resolves to God's natural harmony in the listener's head.

Sustaining notes on an electronic keyboard do sound out of tune. Many of those patches use chorus and similar effects to mask the beat effect.

The steel guitar is unique in that it allows JI triads to be played in any key. Previously, the only way to do this was to assign single notes to multiple instruments, as in a string quartet (or an orchestra).

A barbershop quartet sings in JI. If you add a piano, the listener's ear resolves the piano's tones to match the quartet. This annoys the singers a bit, but the listener won't notice any "out of tuneness". All God's creatures want to hear just intonation.

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<small><img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b.gif" width="64" height="64">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (F Diatonic) Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6)

b0b, you're saying that the steel has a combination of characteristics that cause us this issue. Unlike piano and 6-string guitar, the steel sustains. Therefore, the beats stand out. If you play chords of short duration, the effect is not nearly as pronounced. But because the PSG plays chords and sustains them, the effect is more pronounced. And therefore, the problem is singularly unique to PSG. And the argument that "since pianos and 6-string are tuned ET, then why not PSG" isn't valid because of the sustaining characteristic of the PSG. Do you feel that you have scientifically accounted for this paradox? What about guitarists who strum rhythm? Won't the continued stumming of the same chord make the beating stand out? Why isn't that an issue for them? Does it come down to the fact that they have no choice, so their ears develop the sense of playing ET? Why doesn't it sound out of tune to the rest of us? We know an open G chord is out of tune because the B note is way sharp. But when strumming, we accept it, and don't mind it. Why?<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Jeff Lampert on 30 April 2002 at 10:24 AM.]</p></FONT>

Just saw Buddy's response on "Ask Buddy". Hope he doesn't mind me quoting his thoughts. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><HR><SMALL>Re: Tuning the steel
From: Buddy
Date: 30 Apr 2002
Time: 12:19:21

Comments

The best way to have equal temperament of all pedal changes and be in tune with all other instruments is to tune 440. Anything beyond that is a compromise to accommodate the flexing of cabinets and/or what one personally perceives as being in tune (semantics). That would apply to either neck.</SMALL><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Jim,

Where can I find this "Ask Buddy" website?

Thanks,

carl

Carl and all who haven't found it yet, it's a great Q&A site on Ernie Renn's "Official Buddy Emmons" site. Here's a direct link: http://www.buddyemmons.com/board_toc.htm

On a more general thought, I have a real problem basing what's best with regards to ANY subject on one person, even an icon. First of all, there are MANY icons. And they do many things differently, besides tuning. It is one matter to get a consensus, and thoguhtfully analyze a subject. But to take one icon's word as the gospel does a disservice and is insulting to ALL other icons. At the level of a BE, DJ, PF, TW, JH, LG, etc. etc., I would highly respect and consider what ANY of them had to say, and on a generic subject such as the proper method to tune, or the best guitar, or whatever, I would NEVER consider one icon's word alone as the bottom line. Like I said, it's an insult to all the others to do so, even if that isn't the intent.

I noticed that Doug Journigan uses a little different tempered tuning than Jeff Newman does.Also some had their universal tuning posted with what looked like the same intervals on tempered tuning like Jeffs, but about one half hertz lower. Anyone care to comment on this,and any observations?

It has alot to do with what and how you play.
Record yourself with your band.
The tape don't lie.
When you review the out of tune spots from the live recording, determine wether its the pedal combo used, the open strings, bar placement, ect.
Continually refine your playing and tuning techniques to solve those spots on the tape that make you cringe.

Try this. In your normal seated playing position, put your bar on fret one.
Now, without moving the bar, lean way over and look directly downward at the bar and the fret. Is the bar sharp of the fret? That's parolax error. I doesn't care wether you tune JI or ET. Either way your out of tune.
Watch PF's head when he plays. He's often hovering right over the bar.

Jeff asked

<SMALL>But because the PSG plays chords and sustains them, the effect is more pronounced. And therefore, the problem is singularly unique to PSG. And the argument that "since pianos and 6-string are tuned ET, then why not PSG" isn't valid because of the sustaining characteristic of the PSG. Do you feel that you have scientifically accounted for this paradox?</SMALL>

Yes, but I think you misunderstood some of what I said. The decay envelope of guitars and pianos helps the ear resolve the intervals, but it is not the only factor. The biggest factor is the fact that our ears try very hard to resolve intervals to the nearest ratio of small integers, which is what naturally sounds "in tune". Fast decay helps, because we are left with more of the memory and less of the actual sound waves.

Also, consider the resonance of guitars and pianos. The wooden boxes, like our ear drums, will resonate loudest at the points where the peaks of the sound waves align. So the box itself tends to generate overtones that are part of the JI harmonic series.

One other point is that guitars and pianos are rarely tuned exactly to ET. Most guitarists tweak their tuning by ear to fit their favorite chord positions. Most piano tuners favor a "stretched" temperament that is a bit sweeter than ET in most keys. Also, a note on a piano is made by striking two or three strings, which are not exactly in tune with each other. The ear and the wood tend to enhance the notes that harmonize best.

Only the electronic keyboard, which was designed by engineers instead of by musicians, adheres to strict equal temperament. Which is why it's often the worst offender in the band.

Still, ET doesn't sound horrible or anything. I tune the back neck of my Williams to it. No complaints.

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<small><img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b.gif" width="64" height="64">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (F Diatonic) Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6)<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Bobby Lee on 30 April 2002 at 02:48 PM.]</p></FONT>

I'd have to say that B0B got it right. I tuned 440 for several years and really had to get used to it but never really liked it. One night Jay Shupe sat in for me and re-tuned my guitar to a non-440 tuning pretty much like the Jeff Newman method. I walked in the next night and remembereed how good that sounded and have tuned like this ever since.