D# to D/C# combined with E to Eb on RKL?

Rainer Hackstaette · Post by **Rainer Hackstaette** » 29 Apr 2002 7:49 am

The subject title may be a little confusing. Here is what I mean:

On my RKL I lower the E´s 4+8 E to Eb. I also lower string 2 D# to C#. Since the D# to C# lower takes longer travel, I reach D before the lowering of the E´s begins. It is, in fact, a very soft halftone stop. I was wondering if I should install a halftone lowering rod. It might make the feel of the stop a little more precise and it would free my RKR, which I use for the D# to D lower. I would then use RKR to raise 1+2 to G# and E.

The guitar is a Sierra Crown D 10, and I have all the necessary hardware to install the stop. But it is a rather time-consuming process, and before I start I´d like some comments if it makes any sense at all to combine those two lowers. Mind you, the E´s do not change before the 2nd string is well past D.

I`d appreciate your help.

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Remington D 10 8+7, Sierra Crown D 10 gearless 8+8, Sierra Session S 14 gearless 8+5, Peavey Session 400 LTD

Jim Smith · Post by **Jim Smith** » 29 Apr 2002 8:09 am

I wouldn't recommend a 1/2 stop on that lever, simply because it is used so much. However if you must have one, you should be able to adjust your leverages to get closer to a D than you currently are. Once you get the travels right, it's a simple matter of tightening the lower return springs on your E strings to adjust the stiffness of the 1/2 stop.

BTW, on my Universal Fessy, I lower 2-C# and 4&8 E's to D# and have them adjusted so they all start and end at the same time, with no 1/2 stop feel. I have the 1/2 stop on another lever.

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Jim Smith jimsmith94@charter.net
-=Dekley D-12 10&12=-
-=Fessenden Ext. E9/U-13 8&8=-

Joerg Hennig · Post by **Joerg Hennig** » 29 Apr 2002 8:43 am

The thing here is, in my opinion, it makes more sense musically to combine the lowered E´s with a C# than with a D. When you´re in a "B6" the C# is the equivalent of D on C6. (but you sure know that, Rainer.) If it were mine, I´d leave it the way it is and put the Eb to D on another lever (if you have enough). I never liked those half-stops anyway, more often than not they´re not very pronounced.

Regards, Joe H.

Rainer Hackstaette · Post by **Rainer Hackstaette** » 29 Apr 2002 9:48 am

Joe,
when the E´s are down to Eb/D#, string 2 is indeed C#. (D wouldn´t make any sense, as you said.) But I could reach D before the E´s begin to lower. Would it make sense ergonomically to have a halfstop on that lever or, as Jim indicated, is it too much of a hassle to override that stop every time I want to lower 4+8.
You´re right: halftone stops aren´t as precise as single tone stops (that´s why I took out the original halftone stop D#-D-C# from RKR and split it between RKL and RKR. But I´d also like to have the "Franklin change" 1+2 raised to G# and E. Adding the halftone stop to the Eb-lever would free RKR. I already have 5 levers on E9 and there just isn´t any more room for an additional lever.

Then again: maybe I should just practice more and tinker less ...

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Remington D 10 8+7, Sierra Crown D 10 gearless 8+8, Sierra Session S 14 gearless 8+5, Peavey Session 400 LTD

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 29 Apr 2002 10:15 am

Musically, you probably want the 2nd string D note along with the 4th string F note for diminished chords. If your F lever is on LKL, you would lose that chord.

Ergonomically, the 2nd string D is often used with the AB or BC pedal positions. How good are you at holding that half-stop while you rock your foot on the pedals? I can't do it, myself, but then I've always been a real klutz with half-stops.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b.gif" width="64" height="64">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (F Diatonic) Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6)

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 29 Apr 2002 11:13 am

Half stops as b0b said, are a real problem for me. NEVER ever got used to it. NOT until I put the D AND the C# on different levers did I become happy with it. I will never go back to a half stop. But I concede that it works fine for many players. Or so it seems.

As to putting the D# to C# on the lever that lowers the E's I have found this lever to become much too stiff for me. Every guitar I have sat behind with this arrangement would tire me out in a hearbeat. Especially since I use this lever Sooooo much.

I see the need for it and would love to do it. But it is just too stiff for my tastes. I have heard that a "Franklin" PSG can have 4, 5, 6 or more changes on a knee lever and it is as easy as pie. Plus, NO additional travel required.

I sure would love to try one of these out to see for myself. "Cuz if'n this is true, they have broken the laws of leverage.

Carl

Bengt Erlandsen · Post by **Bengt Erlandsen** » 29 Apr 2002 1:34 pm

The 2nd string Eb-D-C# has so many uses combined w/ E's to Eb or E's to F that I
really believe it should be on a separate knee-lever.
Mine lowers 2nd string to D and then 2 & 9 to C#. Uses 9th string lowering-finger as
the halfstop. Depending on how tight I adjust the return spring on the 9th string
I can have a real good halfstop-feel or almost no halfstop at all.

The combination E's to Eb and 2nd to D also has lots of potential for interesting riffs.

This example might sound a little more blues than country but I included it anyway just
to show an example of how and where it can be used.

<pre>
E7 riff

F#--------------8-----------8-----------8-------8----------------------------------
Eb-8LL~~~~~~8L----------8L----------8L--------------8L~8LL-------------------------
G#------------------8-----------8------------8-------------------------------------
E ------------8L--8L--8L--8L--8L--8L--8L--8L------8L------8L------------8L~~~~~~8L-
B ----------------------------------------------------------8-----------8~~~~~~~8a-
G#------------------------------------------------------------8---8----------------
F#--------------------------------------------------------------8------------------
E ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
D ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
B ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
slowly squeeze that Apedal at the end only halfway

</pre>

Bengt

Rainer Hackstaette · Post by **Rainer Hackstaette** » 29 Apr 2002 2:08 pm

b0b,
since the second string reaches the note D before the E´s start to lower, I can raise them to F without a problem. So the diminished chord is still there.
But you´re right: holding a lever at a half stop for any length of time is indeed awkward. I guess I´ll just forget about the whole idea and leave the guitar as it is. Half stops are truly a hassle.

Carl,
the D# to C# on the Eb-lever does make that lever considerably stiffer. That lever also pulls string 3 on the B6 neck from B to Bb so that there are 4 pulls on one lever. I was thinking about taking the B to Bb lower off that lever and putting it on a vertical lever that operates only on the B6 neck. (There are 8 levers altogether, 5 for E9 and 5 for B6 with RKL and RKR doing double duty.) That way there would be only 3 pulls on the Eb-lever, making it easier to play (I hope).

Bengt,
sorry, I didn´t see your post when I wrote the reply - it arrived while I was (ever so slowly) typing it. That riff looks interesting, but I couldn´t play it anyway, because I lower the E´s on RKL and D# to D on RKR. I have tried to put the E to Eb on LKR, but the combination with the B pedal was just too uncomfortable for me. So I guess it´s true: you can´t have everything.

Thanks everybody, you all have saved me a couple of hours working on my guitar upside down that I can now spend playing it right side up! (I kinda knew it was a dumb idea to begin with ...)

Rainer

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Remington D 10 8+7, Sierra Crown D 10 gearless 8+8, Sierra Session S 14 gearless 8+5, Peavey Session 400 LTD

[This message was edited by Rainer Hackstaette on 29 April 2002 at 03:20 PM.]