Critique my U12 5x5 Copedent

Tom Gorr · From: Three Hills, Alberta

At the request of Mr Burak on a prior thread, I present my copedent to the Forum for your wisdom, guidance, critique.

Here's some commentary:

Ten years ago, I bought my MSA Vintage XL S12 5x7 (Newman setup) and felt it was laborious to play. To my needs at the time, I felt there was valuable real estate (knees, levers, accessibility) being tied up in changes that I didn't use, didn't quite like, or didn't like the placement of.

I analysed copedents and pedal/lever relations for months (forumites like Mr. Bovine and Mr. Perlowin will note some direct or indirect borrows) and I condensed the ideas that worked for me and ultimately, settled on this personalized version of a copedent that is, in short, a joy to play...It is simple and intuitive and has easy access nearly all (legit) interrelationships possible given what is there (forgetting about what is not there for a moment, lol).

NO C PEDAL: Admittedly, I didn't get along with Pedal C, and probably still wouldn't - musically and stylistically, I prefer the A+B and E-F# on a lever.

P4/P7: Probably the major innovation, (if it can be called that...as it encumbers the location of other changes in that spot) is the LV and LKR due to their replacement of P4 and P7. I've found plenty of use for the LKR/P4 move in E9 style, too.

P8: I added another B--C raise to the notorious Boowah, and now that pedal gets used very frequently....! As much as any of the others in the B6 set.

P6 aka E--D: Also note the placement of the E--D pedal next to both B and the Emmons P5 for some E9/B6 overlap/synergies. Unfortunately, this E--D change is probably the most aggravating when feet are engaged in A+B'ing, but one work around is to use LV to get the floating A pedal tone, and the other is to engage A, LKR, RKL and slide back two frets for the basic P6 change with no floating tones. A lot of players like their E--D on a lever, and that would be on my wish list too, if I didn't have three work arounds already, and a laundry list of new changes on the want list (not to mention the major rework of the copedent that would follow from the anchoring effect of the current placement).

The combined effect of the B6 copedent arrangement is no need for two foot stomping.

CONCERNS: In spite of the positives I see from this copedent, my misgivings are this...this copedent evolved from personal research and trial and error process coming from a pretty naive background in playing steel guitar...and I have residual concerns as to what I may be missing due to the judgement calls having been made from a relative absence of experience, and just going on my likes/dislikes. (Also known as not knowing what you don't know)

As my skills have evolved, I feel like I may be missing something big and important stylistically without the X lever (B-Bb aka A#), even though this same tone is represented with the G# to A# on LKR - style is more about HOW that tone moves and I'm thinking I'm missing "bounce" that the X lever may give to those who know how to use it. I would need to do some heavy thinking about adding a second LV or throwing out my copedent and moving back to a more Newman style copedent. That's a critical decision going forward. So, I'd like some input specifically on how important is that X lever change given the A# already present in the P4 LKR pull?

FUTURE ADDS: I'm getting very interested in the possibilities of other changes, like the middle G#-G lower, which could exist in my current program as P0 without modification. Always wanted to give the middle F# to G a whirl, too, but that would start getting me into a more complex lever arrangement.

I need to fish or cut bait with this copedent, so don't hold back! If it is unduly limiting my musical vocabulary, it needs to be fixed.

Jim Pitman · From: Waterbury Ctr. VT 05677 USA

Even though you have a Bb, I think I'd miss the open string B to Bb change, especially on an all pull guitar. You can combine it with with and without pedal 1, and pedal 1 alone, to get a four note chromatic descending scale.
I tend to use standard pedals 2 and 3 a lot to get the 2minor triad after the root triad is played so I'd miss it.
I've always thought it was funny a G# to G change never made it as a standard on a uni. Major to minor is handy. I suppose there are so many other ways to get it. I'm thinking of adding a pedal (9) for that function though.
Can't comment on the other unique stuff as I've never tried it.
Sometimes I think my copedent pigeon holes me, so I'll say this - folks with unique copedents tend to sound unique. I admire your courage.

Jim Palenscar · From: Oceanside, Calif, USA

I agree with Jim Pittman about the B-Bb comment and, while you can replace the BC pedal move w AB +E-F# lever (I have done that) it is difficult to execute moderately up tempo BC moves with that combination effectively and that particular move is a fairly common one, enough so that I put the C pedal back. Always a trade off. Also- the placement of the E lowers on the RKR , while being a standard quite awhile ago, means that you are tying up the same leg that you need for your volume pedal for all of your 6th side chords and I'd not like that even tho there are may uni players that have it on the RKL. Have fun Smile

.

Pete Burak · From: Portland, OR USA

Tom, Thanks for posting your setup. 'Always interested in others S12U setups. It seems like most guys go with something outside the norm found on S10/D10 somewhere along the way.

So the next question is... What songs are you playing on your tuning these days? What type of music are you primarily looking to play?
I ask because some hardcore Jazz guys might go in the Bb6th Uni direction like Reece Anderson, and some Blues guys might want to go in more of a Robert Randolph Sacred Steel 12-string direction.
I think for general country, country-rock, western swing, and rock/jam-band stuff, the standard E9/B6 tuning is great.

I too like having the E to F# on it's own lever and doing away with the C pedal. It works great for a lot of Country, Jam Band, and Singer/Songwriter E9th-ee stuff I was doing.
When I started playing hardcore country again recently, with a lot of Ralph Mooney style, I switched it back to the C-Pedal. Either way has it's advantages.

So looking at your chart, My E raises and lowers are the same as yours. My A and B pedals are the same as yours.
When I run E-to-F# on a lever I have it on RKL, like yours (I combined it with the D#-to-D lower).

In B6th mode I see you probably release RKR when you go to the 4-chord with your P3. I could live with that. You should definitely check out Larry Bells Universal Tuning website. He does something similar (and has an incredible amount of important to know S12U info available).

I also add the string-5 raise to C on the Boo-wha. I like using this to go back two frets to get a 5-chord in B6th. If someone calls Purple Haze you can just back it off for that Jimi chord.

My Uni's raise the high F# to G on P5 (your P4), which completes the high end of a diminished chord when using P5+P6 (your P3+P4}. Not required but if you wanted to add it you could. I think it's a Jeff Newman thing.

So all in all, a lot of S12U players with various setups could probably sit down at your steel and play a lot of stuff, as is.

I would ask, how much do you use LKR?
It looks like the traditional C6th P4 (I don't have this change, but have messed around with it a bit).
My own inkling would be to change that to add the string-5 B-to-C# to LKR (it would then be a combo of P4 and P7), and change LKV to B-to-Bb on string-5.
fwiw, a well known S12U pioneer named Bill Stafford has P7 on a knee lever (I think it is actually on LKR).

The string-5 B-to-Bb is kind of a nice to have "utility" change, as it is used on both E9 and B6, but it is not a "can't live without" as you already know. It would be easy for you to try out because the bellcrank is already in place. You would only have to move the rod from a raise hole to a lower hole.

So all in all I don't think your missing too much from an S12U standpoint.
In computer-lingo it might be called "a reduced instruction set".

Do you use the high F# string raises much?

Tom Gorr · From: Three Hills, Alberta

Jim & Jim: Thanks for your input, confirms to me that I have to revisit the B-Bb "cull" to see if I can continue to live without it, or find enough love for it to motivate me to include it. I am able to get 4 chromatic notes on my E string, and if I implement the G# to G change, will get the same on String 6. But, every string has a different "place", and a lot of music happens on string 5.

Pete: Your note gives me some comfort that I'm not out of bounds too far beyond others who have tried to build U12 copedents a half step outside the D10 format, and that we share some approaches.

My interests at this point have been wartime big-band swing, christmas swing, improvisational swing, haven't yet bonded with western swing (due to a complete lack of exposure to it), 80's and 90's country, original music part compositions in the folk-country-pop-rock genres. I've been encouraged by some local blues afficiando's to pursue the Robert Randolph approach, and as much as I think he's an incredible talent (and the family band alongside him, and their tunes, stage performance, etc.) unfortunately its not a place I can write original works from, and thus will not be pursuing that direction with any vigor. If I had the musical knowledge and ability of Reece, and others who followed that direction, I would quit my day job. In fact, in the ten years I've owned this steel, I've only spent about 1.5 years of hobbyist level commitment with it, so there's some breadth, but not a lot of depth yet.

I release RKR going to my P3, most times, not all, there's a spot or two that actually works without that. P8, yes, same use as I've found, amongst others, of course.

Usage of P4 on LKR: Heavy use. - all kinds of situations. All the C6 uses, including with the modified P8; a passing blues tones as well as anchoring scale tones in E9 depending on the root...it loses about half its value if combined with a B-C# ala P7, which is why I opted to put the B-C# on the LV - as you can probably tell, I get P7 by using the same knee to get the vertical and the LKR simultaneously.

High string F#++ raise is heavily used, equally as much as the E-F# raise. This is a Mike Perlowin borrow, and I was astonished at how independent I could keep those two pulls, despite them being right in the same 'zone'.

This whole copedent is used heavily, there are no "dead spots", which is something that is special about it.

What I don't like about it is that its so integrated, that its a bit of a house of cards. Add a C-pedal, and I'm probably into a 6x8 that needs two footed pedalling.

I'm glad to have had the challenge of this older model steel, but one of these day, I think I should open things up one more level of complexity.

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

My first thought: I wouldn't want to be without the G#-F# lower of 6 (and, for the 6th-style stuff, a half-stop at G: Mike Auldridge told me to drop the high A to G# and the low to G. I've loved both those pulls)
Second thought: Raising 1 to G# with raising 4 to F# sounds inadequate. 1 to G# sounds good with 2 to E and unison with 1/3 and 2/4.
But do do those heads down the road of "Change Creep", which led me to my Sho-Bud uni, as only a single-single changer can support all the pulls I want (I'm at something like 10 and 7).
But I know what I want in a Uni, and I want everything that I have on my D10.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects

Tom Gorr · From: Three Hills, Alberta

Thanks Lane,

Just thinking about String 1/4 raises vs. the String 1/2 raise, its clear to me how the whole construction and style of 'licks' would change direction...one creates harmonized melodies, the other is scale licks with some bending.

This whole G# to F# lower seems to have a lot of fans, do you have a demo of how that change sounds?

Do you think you'll be happier with a full D10, or the compromise that is the U12?

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

I'm pretty sure the U will make me happy. I'll try to put together a video of a bit of how I use the 6th lower, I find it easier to do those videos like I've already done (www.youtube.com/steelguitarlane is my channel, the recent videos are all showing some of how I use changes).
I decided to head for a uni because I have this tendency to hop from neck to neck between phrases, and it made sense to put both necks together.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects

Jim Priebe · From: Queensland, Australia - R.I.P.

Tom
Copedents are a pretty personal thing and I guess we all get used to and comfortable with "ours".
My only question is with your LKV - isn't it just a half double up for the A pedal (P1)?
I feel this up lever works best (physically) in conjunction with pedals 1,2 (& normally 3), by raising 7 (F#) a semitone to give a seventh chord and I actually have it also dropping the 2 string a tone which gives a 6th so we have a 13th.
If you have a specific use for it then don't change it though.
_________________
Priebs GFI ('09)Short-Uni10. GFI ('96)Short-Uni SD11. ('86)JEM U12
www.steelguitardownunder.com

Tom Gorr · From: Three Hills, Alberta

Yes, the LV is the raise that turns LKR(P4) into P7 when I push them together with the same knee, and also the "work around" to be able to get the A pedal type tones with my E--D pedal engaged. That B-C# raise creates a lot of melodic content around the base chords laid down by the pedals. I call melodic overlays "floating tones".

Putting these two changes in these positions was the only way I could get all of the B6 voicings and keeping my pedal work super easy and left-legged. As mentioned I like the G# to A# with E9 style too.

Interesting that your F#-G raise is on LV...as my "adds" describe, that's a change I've never had the opportunity to try, but want to.

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