The Steel Guitar Forum

Are there any courses on that? I can't seem to find more than a little tab here and there.I've played Rocky Top,I can take a decent break in OBS and if I catch the changes,I can hack my way thru a solo on most bluegrass tunes - but not with much authority.It was just never my specialty.But now I've got a steady gig with a very talented singer/guitar player who,among all the other stuff he can do real well,can tear up the fiddle and banjo on some bluegrass tunes.If I'm gonna keep up with this cat,I'm sorely in need of an in-depth course of study on E9 bluegrass steel. -MJ-

Never heard of a bluegrass steel course per se, but there's a great album by Vasser Clements "The Bluegrass Sessions" featuring Doug Jernigan on steel. Some phenomenal playing on the jazzier side of BG. Sometimes Jernigan plays at speeds that defy natural law. You'd have to cut the speed down to about 1/10 to pick it out note for note.

MJ,
Is it more the style or the tempo that presents the problem?

I've found that anything that reaches typical 'bluegrass fast song in cut time' tempo, most of my usual licks are out the door and that small arsenal of stuff that actually is playable at that tempo is all that's in the tool box.

I think there are two choices:
1. Clearly, it CAN be done. Find some good licks and patterns that will work at any tempo to bolster your 'old standby at any tempo' collection. Jeff Newman has a course called 'No Speed Limit' where he uses 'Cotton Eyed Joe' as a study tune. There is a lot of material out there to draw from.

2. Don't feel like you have to play that string of sixteenth notes like the banjer player. Listen to the kinds of licks Dobro players use. Yes, there are hammer/pull combinations at the speed of light, but you don't have to belch out a constant stream like a machine gun.

Just my take on it. It is a fun little challenge sometimes. I used to sit in with a good bluegrass band years ago and it is a sobering experience.

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<small>Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Emmons D-10 9x9, 1971 Dobro

Larry's right on. Years ago I was on the road with a band that had a fiddle player that played all that super-fast stuff. When I first got in the group I felt like a total incompetent when we'd do the fast bluegrass tunes, but found that a combination of fingerpicking rolls and other certain licks and patterns can be done at speed and sound great. Then I'd listen to the dobro guys and think, "why am I trying to play so fast anyway, they're not and it sounds perfect". You don't have to be as fast as the fiddle or banjo to sound good, but if you want to play fast, work on some banjo-type rolls, throw in some dobro-type licks and you're on your way.

I dunno - I definately can HEAR the stuff and I've been exposed to it most of my life - I just feel kind of clumsy trying to play it.Technique-wise,as far as 16th note shredding,I'm up against my limits without much headroom and on a bad night,it can get ugly - but that's just practice.I guess I could immerse myself into the bag,buy a bunch of records of standards and dig it out for myself and I may have to.I just thought that as a labor saving device,perhaps there was a course of 8 or 10 classics where somebody had already sorted out the easiest ways to play the heads,some examples of various styles of soloing,etc.and I could take it from there. -MJ-

Michael...I think the best way is to learn to at least fake your way through a bluegrass gig is to learn a couple fiddle tune heads like "Forky Dear" or "Salt River" note for note. There's a great "Fiddle Player Fake Book" I've seen out there. Also, BIAB has got a Bluegrass fake book that makes it really easy to learn some melody's at a manageable pace.
Of course as we all know, Bluegrass is a serious bag that some people spend a lifetime mastering...just like Classical, blues, jazz, or country. I know you'll do just fine.

*<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Gene Jones on 01 May 2002 at 04:18 PM.]</p></FONT>

Guys, those blazing fast banjo notes aren't 16th's... they're 8th notes, just played faster than any human being has a right to play.

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Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

Here is your where the lesson we already have drilled into our head as steel players will really shine...

PLAY THE MELODY!!!

All the bluegrass guys will be turning their heads when they see you have the class to play the melody in all it's "Pedal Steel Guitar glory!"... (thereby reinforsing the songwriters "theme" to the audience in the middle of a "take one!" meltdown).

For general fast steel pickin' on BG type progressions you can always get out your NRPS records for a quick refresher, ala Panama Red, Glendale Train, Henry, Hello Mary Lou, ect...

Herb,
I think you're right.

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<small>Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Emmons D-10 9x9, 1971 Dobro

I have an old Doug Jernigan course with 5 or 6 bluegrass / fiddle type tunes. There are some nice fills and runs on those songs which work well in many songs in that style.

I tend to fall back on Jimmy Crawford\Russ Hicks chicken-picken' licks that I've learned over the years, semi-muted. They work well. Also pick-blocking Paul Franklin-type licks.

Definitely pick blocking. And Band in a Box. When you're working on a tune or progression using BIAB, and you're trying for 160 BPM, start at a comfortable pace, like 80 or 90. When you feel fairly flawless at say 90, then go up to 100. Then, and this is _most important_, go down to 80. Then 105 and 75, and so on. The slow tempos give your fingers the attack and precision on each note. The faster tempo allows your fingers to do phrases made up of those very same notes.

It really works. I remember one night that I was getting ready to do a festival with Vassar Clements. I was working like mad to get up to an effortless 160, and skipped my going back to the lower tempos, just pushing and pushing. My wife wisely admonished me for not doing what I tell all my students. "OK," I said grudgingly, considering that maybe by now I was beyond having to do that. Well, I went back to fast-slow, faster-slower, and I realized how much time I'd been wasting trying to effort through it.

The slow really gives you the precision and takes out the effort.

Also, Mike, PF does have an advanced E9th speed picking course. If you can nail that course, you can shred most bluegrass tunes.

NOT definitely pick blocking. It's not that simple. Tell Doug Jernigan or Buddy Emmons or Mike Smith that their technique prevents them from playing fast.

I agree that learning all techniques is beneficial. However, I personally feel that it is not beneficial advice to tell someone (or even imply) that if they learn pick blocking they will remove the roadblock that kept them from playing as fast as Paul Franklin. It's just NOT TRUE.

NO MATTER HOW YOU BLOCK, playing as fast as Paul does on Jerry Reid's 'Nervous Breakdown' or Doug does on 'OBS' or Buddy does on the Rainbow Album Linus & Lucy Medley requires your butt on the pak-a-seat for DAYS and WEEKS and MONTHS at a stretch. Ain't no other way I've found. And you don't GOTTA pick block. It is a very efficient and useful technique that works better for some than for others. (sorry, Pete -- I just had to say it)

Pete's idea of using BIAB or just MIDI files is great. Really easy to change tempo. Great tools.

IMHO

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<small>Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Emmons D-10 9x9, 1971 Dobro<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 24 April 2002 at 09:35 AM.]</p></FONT>

What a surprise to see the "bluegrass" topic on the Pedal Steel forum. As I usually hang with the no pedal folks I thought I'd jump in with my .02.

As a dobro guy who plays 90% bluegrass my approach on "breakdowns" (open keys) is to use my right hand as efficiently as possible. Most of my solos use roll patterns in combination with a lot of hammer on/pull offs. All the blocking uses my trailing left hand fingers behind the bar.

Although the dobro is typically _much_ more agressive these days my philosophy is to avoid competing with the banjo and to use phrasing and technique which is unique to my instrument. I'd encourage y'all to do the same when approaching some of he "warhorses".

You've got features and that let the steel stand on its own merits, fitting with a distinct difference. Use that difference to your advantage.

I'd love to record a steel/dobro project one day (ala Auldridge and Newman)...Anyone in the DC area?? Have car will travel...?

Carry on..Back to lurk mode!



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Howard Parker
poobah@resoguit.com
www.resoguit.com
ListOwner RESOGUIT

OK, Larry, I think we both agree that every serious steel player should be able to both palm- and pick-block. It just gives you more tools to play with.

For me, there's a point at which it's really inefficient to play fast while palm blocking. That's when I have to use pick blocking. I also like the way a pick-blocked note ends--by starting another note, so that it doesn't go thud at the end. I really love the thuddy sound of palm blocked notes in certain settings, like in a Ray Price shuffle.

Maybe I'm saying 'definitely pick block' because my experience is that I can palm block efficiently up to about 110 or 120 BPM, but can pick block on a good day past 170. It's just easier. There's less work to pick blocking.

BTW, I've had both Doug Jernigan and Paul Franklin as one-on-one teachers, and I'm certain I'm doing both techniques efficiently and correctly.

Larry, I know you pick block. Don't you do the really fast things pick-blocked? What's your experience there?

Pete, if you can pick block at 170 (on a good day), then you should be able to palm block in that range as well (on a good day). It's something for you to work on, though if you're pick-blocking at 170, I sure wouldn't be worried about being a slower palm blocker. But since it seems to bother you, you should try to figure out your inefficiencies. If you can't get past 120, then something is holding you back. That's a fact.

Robert, was one of those Jernigan courses "Orange Blossom Special"? I found that course very helpful for not only playing the song itself but for finding positions, which when combined with banjo rolls could be used for other songs too. I think Scotty used to sell the course. There was one other song included with it, but the name escapes me now.

"Pete, if you can pick block at 170 (on a good day), then you should be able to palm block in that range as well (on a good day)."

Sure, at half speed!

My perception is that it takes less effort to put a finger on a string than to move a wrist up. After all, you're moving less mass. It's simple physics.

What do you know that I don't know?

.<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Jerry Brightman on 25 April 2002 at 07:16 AM.]</p></FONT>

I just sat down with the chord progression of Bill Monroe's 'Rawhide' at 170 and re-realized that you don't have to pick block every note. You block phrases, much like Jimmy Crawford does on "Ton of Steel" and I'm sure more than likely on "Steel Crazy" ( http://b0b.com/products/crawford.html ).

I'm certain you can't bounce at 170 BPM, but that blocking phrases (that works quite well) is what players do at 170 while (not right exactly precisely at that time) palm blocking.

FOr the record, Mike Smith definitely pick blocks.......

In terms of bluegrass music, I worked for years to play steel/banjo licks at a really fast tempo, only to realize that I had the cadence wrong. I was playing solidly, really fast, but it really didn't have that feel that makes it bluegrass. I spent some time woodshedding with banjo virtuoso Danny Barnes (we play together regularly), and he turned me on to listening to fiddle players, not banjo players. It's not the cascade of notes, it's that rhythmic pulse that make it sound like bluegrass. If you don't have the time to work on this, I second Pete Burak's suggestions. Just play the melody and the bluegrass players will appreciate it a lot more than attempting to play a bunch of steel guitar licks really fast.

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www.tyacktunes.com

Why is it so important to play fast speed pickin' licks for a Bluegrass Tune ? I ,like everyone else thinks they sound great but like mentioned above why wouldn't it be just as great to play the full melody line, think about it, hardly anyone else is . At this time I am just working my way back to Pedals and when we play one of them dang tunes (which I love ) like Rocky Top, I just play the full melody at whatever square dance tempo the band is zipping along at. A few 1 bar passing licks in-between the melody phrases is about all I can handle right now anyway ! Added note, when in Nashville, go see Mike Sweeney at the Palace, last week I had the chance to see Mike play Mule Skinner Blues and Rocky Top during their Bluegrass set which consists of Fiddle , Banjo and Steel. The boy can pick at tempo.....

tp

It is not how fast and how many notes that you can play,it is knowing how many not to play!

<SMALL>I'm certain you can't bounce at 170 BPM</SMALL>

For starters, the act of moving your palm is only a small part of the entire coordinated effort. The actual amount of movement is probably the same as the movement of a finger when pick-blocking, which should be very, very little to mute the note. And the coordination of the picking and blocking movement must be very precise and efficient, same as in pick-blocking. And as you get really fast, the blocking tends to be almost cursory (same as in pick-blocking), since at super fast speeds, all the notes blur together. When you palm-block, you DON'T bounce your hand. The fact that you refer to it as "bouncing" makes me think that you need to adjust your technique a bit. Probably only a little, but enough to where I'll bet you could speed up quite a lot.

<SMALL>Why is it so important to play fast speed pickin' licks for a Bluegrass Tune ?</SMALL>

Because speed-picking is one of the things that defines this style of music. What if you played a Ray Price shuffle, and a banjo-picker started playing a typical foggy-mountain style breakdown. Would that sound right? Same here. Since you are playing in an area not normally associated with steel, the best way to gain acceptance is to follow the rules of the style. After you're accepted, then you can try rewriting them.

<SMALL>It is not how fast and how many notes that you can play,it is knowing how many not to play!</SMALL>

In bluegrass, it is a great deal about playing very fast with lots and lots of notes, and being creative while doing it.