Hi Carl. How's the project guitar coming along?
Also, did that 3rd string break yet?
------------------
<small><img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b.gif" width="64" height="64">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (F Diatonic) Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6)
Question for Carl Dixon
Moderator: Shoshanah Marohn
Hi b0b,
The 3rd string has not broken yet. April 5th it will be 2 yrs old! The string is very bad as far as tone is concerned but I want to see how long it will last. Then I will change it and others regularly. But it clearly proves beyond ANY shadow,that string breakage on PSG's is NOT caused by the string being pulled. It is, however caused by the string being bent as is the case on all changers except the late Fenders, Anapegs and Excels.
The project. Well, sadly it is on hold until I find a way to cure two problems that annoy me to death.
1. "Cabinet drop" (or whatever is causing it). I think it is excessive on this guitar.
2. The problem that several U'12r's have talked about on this forum. That is; when a string is lowered a half a tone and then lowered a whole tone and returned back to the half tone lower, the string is flat. The same things happens if it is raised a half tone,then raised an additional half tone and returned to the half tone raise. It will in this case, be sharp.
It breaks my heart. The switchovers work like a charm. But the 2 problems prevent me from installing them.
Until I can find a way to cure, or GREATLY reduce the above problems I have NO desire to go further with my dream.
On a side note. When I ordered the Excel, it was my first experience, ever, with a universal and/or 12 string. That part I dearly love. More than I could EVER have imagined. I would never go back to a D-10.
Now, let me ecplain something. I owe this admiration, not to the standard universal. No way could I ever be satisfied with the normal U-12 copedent.
For years, I balked at certain sacrifices on a U-12 when compared to a D-10. I thought about it for 40+ yrs and after trying on paper just about EVERY copedent imaginable, I came up with one that I felt I would be happy with.
Well I had NO idea how very pleased I would be with it. But for my tastes and style of playing, I could not be happier. I simply love the tuning. I have only had to make a minor adjustment to it since I ordered it.
Thanks for asking and God bless,
carl
The 3rd string has not broken yet. April 5th it will be 2 yrs old! The string is very bad as far as tone is concerned but I want to see how long it will last. Then I will change it and others regularly. But it clearly proves beyond ANY shadow,that string breakage on PSG's is NOT caused by the string being pulled. It is, however caused by the string being bent as is the case on all changers except the late Fenders, Anapegs and Excels.
The project. Well, sadly it is on hold until I find a way to cure two problems that annoy me to death.
1. "Cabinet drop" (or whatever is causing it). I think it is excessive on this guitar.
2. The problem that several U'12r's have talked about on this forum. That is; when a string is lowered a half a tone and then lowered a whole tone and returned back to the half tone lower, the string is flat. The same things happens if it is raised a half tone,then raised an additional half tone and returned to the half tone raise. It will in this case, be sharp.
It breaks my heart. The switchovers work like a charm. But the 2 problems prevent me from installing them.
Until I can find a way to cure, or GREATLY reduce the above problems I have NO desire to go further with my dream.
On a side note. When I ordered the Excel, it was my first experience, ever, with a universal and/or 12 string. That part I dearly love. More than I could EVER have imagined. I would never go back to a D-10.
Now, let me ecplain something. I owe this admiration, not to the standard universal. No way could I ever be satisfied with the normal U-12 copedent.
For years, I balked at certain sacrifices on a U-12 when compared to a D-10. I thought about it for 40+ yrs and after trying on paper just about EVERY copedent imaginable, I came up with one that I felt I would be happy with.
Well I had NO idea how very pleased I would be with it. But for my tastes and style of playing, I could not be happier. I simply love the tuning. I have only had to make a minor adjustment to it since I ordered it.
Thanks for asking and God bless,
carl
-
Larry Bell
- Posts: 5550
- Joined: 4 Aug 1998 11:00 pm
- Location: Englewood, Florida
- Contact:
Hi, Carl
Long time no 'see'.
Got some numbers on the detuning? Have you determined whether it's cabinet, changer, or elsewhere?
When you tune 6 to 'straight up', how much does it drop with your A pedal? How about 4th?
When you tune 5 to 'straight up', how much does it drop with the B pedal? How about 4th?
On my newer S-12 I've had serious (10 cents +) detuning on the 6th which makes the A+F position hard to tune correctly. When I raise 9 from B to D on a lever it drops as much as hitting the A pedal, so I know it's not the cabinet alone. Could it be flex in the changer axle? I believe I'm seeing the greatest effect on the middle strings. The first doesn't even drop enough to serve as a compensator.
Just curious. Great to see you back.
------------------
<small>Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Emmons D-10 9x9, 1971 Dobro<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 28 March 2002 at 10:39 AM.]</p></FONT>
Long time no 'see'.
Got some numbers on the detuning? Have you determined whether it's cabinet, changer, or elsewhere?
When you tune 6 to 'straight up', how much does it drop with your A pedal? How about 4th?
When you tune 5 to 'straight up', how much does it drop with the B pedal? How about 4th?
On my newer S-12 I've had serious (10 cents +) detuning on the 6th which makes the A+F position hard to tune correctly. When I raise 9 from B to D on a lever it drops as much as hitting the A pedal, so I know it's not the cabinet alone. Could it be flex in the changer axle? I believe I'm seeing the greatest effect on the middle strings. The first doesn't even drop enough to serve as a compensator.
Just curious. Great to see you back.
------------------
<small>Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Emmons D-10 9x9, 1971 Dobro<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 28 March 2002 at 10:39 AM.]</p></FONT>
-
Ray Jenkins
- Posts: 2779
- Joined: 28 Jan 2000 1:01 am
- Location: Gold Canyon Az. U.S.A.
-
Moon in Alaska
- Posts: 1286
- Joined: 2 Dec 1999 1:01 am
- Location: Kasilof, Alaska * R.I.P.
- Contact:
<FONT SIZE=6 COLOR="RED"> WELCOME BACK CARL</font>
We have missed your "melodious" voice !!It sounds like that changer certainly cures the 3rd string breakage !! I hope you can cure the detuning problem. *** ***
------------------
<< Moon Mullin in Alaska >>
==Carter S-10==
<< Old Fender-400 >>
== Evans FET 500 Custom LV ==
<A HREF="http://www.geocities.com/moon9999610/alaska.html" TARGET=_blank>
CLICK HERE FOR MOON'S NEW WEB SITE</A>
We have missed your "melodious" voice !!It sounds like that changer certainly cures the 3rd string breakage !! I hope you can cure the detuning problem. ***
***------------------
<< Moon Mullin in Alaska >>
==Carter S-10==
<< Old Fender-400 >>
== Evans FET 500 Custom LV ==
<A HREF="http://www.geocities.com/moon9999610/alaska.html" TARGET=_blank>
CLICK HERE FOR MOON'S NEW WEB SITE</A>
-
Jeff Lampert
- Posts: 2696
- Joined: 8 May 2000 12:01 am
- Location: queens, new york city
Hi Larry,
And thanks to those who expressed their kindness.
OK, the 6th string drops 10+ cents when just the A pedal is pressed. The 4th string not nearly as much. But enough to annoy me.
The 6th string raises about 5+ cents when I lower the E's. This really bothers me because I do NOT get a nice "6th" sound that I am used to on my D-10. Since the 10th string is affected very little, the octaves are out of tune both with the A pedal OR the lever lowering the E's.
I could install compensators but I have it in other places also and just do not care to get around the problem that way.
I feel that the drop is due to more than one cause. Surely there is some in the changer. It's a long rod on a 12 string. So some bending in the middle is occuring I feel.
The cabinet of course is highly suspect. Al Udeen wrote me of a way to help cure it. I will study his suggestion. And there are other things that be contributing. I am not smart enough to figure it out though.
Thanks again folks for your nice words,
God bless all,
carl
And thanks to those who expressed their kindness.
OK, the 6th string drops 10+ cents when just the A pedal is pressed. The 4th string not nearly as much. But enough to annoy me.
The 6th string raises about 5+ cents when I lower the E's. This really bothers me because I do NOT get a nice "6th" sound that I am used to on my D-10. Since the 10th string is affected very little, the octaves are out of tune both with the A pedal OR the lever lowering the E's.
I could install compensators but I have it in other places also and just do not care to get around the problem that way.
I feel that the drop is due to more than one cause. Surely there is some in the changer. It's a long rod on a 12 string. So some bending in the middle is occuring I feel.
The cabinet of course is highly suspect. Al Udeen wrote me of a way to help cure it. I will study his suggestion. And there are other things that be contributing. I am not smart enough to figure it out though.
Thanks again folks for your nice words,
God bless all,
carl
-
Paul Graupp
- Posts: 4922
- Joined: 24 Jan 2001 1:01 am
- Location: Macon Ga USA
-
Jim Palenscar
- Posts: 5857
- Joined: 4 Aug 1998 11:00 pm
- Location: Oceanside, Calif, USA
- Contact:
-
richard burton
- Posts: 3846
- Joined: 23 Jan 2001 1:01 am
- Location: Britain
Carl,
May I make some suggestions?
Try using a wound sixth string.
Use a thinner string on the fourth.
Make a new changer axle using hardened steel.
The one problem which I don't think can be solved satisfactorily is the strings coming back to pitch when you have a half tone/full tone raise on two levers. This is similar to the problem of 'splitting' to get a half tone. If you press the pedal, and then move the lever, you will get a slightly different note than if you move the lever, then press the pedal.
May I make some suggestions?
Try using a wound sixth string.
Use a thinner string on the fourth.
Make a new changer axle using hardened steel.
The one problem which I don't think can be solved satisfactorily is the strings coming back to pitch when you have a half tone/full tone raise on two levers. This is similar to the problem of 'splitting' to get a half tone. If you press the pedal, and then move the lever, you will get a slightly different note than if you move the lever, then press the pedal.
Jim Smith: It is indeed a keyless.
Jim Palenscar: Are you talking about the hysterisis problem caused by keyed guitars? If so, I do not have this problem.
Richard Burton: Thanks so much for your suggestions. But with much sincere respect, a wound sixth and a thinner fourth would be unacceptable to me. I do intend to replace the changer axle with the hardest metal I can find. 'Preciate your suggestions.
For whatever it's worth, I do know what is causing the problem of double raises and lowers, even though I am NOT sure of the causes of my "cabinet drop".
The reason for the first problem is the crossbar shaft twisting and/or flexing. NO question in my mind. I can see it happening with the guitar upside down. And the answer is a crossbar that is much stronger than the aluminum hexagonal crossbars that are standard on this guitar. Mitsuo sent me an adapter to solve the problem in one case. But it it would mess up the area of the pull rods and look like a rube goldberg attachment. So didn't do it.
There are problems in trying to change out the crossbars that I won't try to explain. Suffice to say, I would have already done it, if it was not a major undertaking.
I am strongly thinking of building a new steel from scratch and use only the neck and fret board, the changer, pull rods, pedal pull rods and pedals and the keyless tuners from the Excel.
Of course replacing the changer axle with a stronger metal is tantamount. The more I think about it, the more I am convinced I can either totally eliminate or greatly reduce the two problems with considerable thought and dexterity.
I am sorry and this will win no awards, but this has LONG been overlooked by the manufacturers. It is HIGH time these problems are acknowledged, the root cause identified and the problem cured once and for all. This along with one more pet peave. And that one is, the tops of the strings NOT being flat at the first few frets. That one has been annoying to me since I first put a raised nut on my first steel guitar--a converted Sears Silvetone when I was trying to learn to play. Come to think of it, I am STILL trying to learn to play.
I would opt any day for less color and style hype, for a PSG that did NOT have these problems.
Thanks again to all who have expressed their kindness. I have not posted for a long time. It is good to be once again contributing.
God bless you all,
carl
Jim Palenscar: Are you talking about the hysterisis problem caused by keyed guitars? If so, I do not have this problem.
Richard Burton: Thanks so much for your suggestions. But with much sincere respect, a wound sixth and a thinner fourth would be unacceptable to me. I do intend to replace the changer axle with the hardest metal I can find. 'Preciate your suggestions.
For whatever it's worth, I do know what is causing the problem of double raises and lowers, even though I am NOT sure of the causes of my "cabinet drop".
The reason for the first problem is the crossbar shaft twisting and/or flexing. NO question in my mind. I can see it happening with the guitar upside down. And the answer is a crossbar that is much stronger than the aluminum hexagonal crossbars that are standard on this guitar. Mitsuo sent me an adapter to solve the problem in one case. But it it would mess up the area of the pull rods and look like a rube goldberg attachment. So didn't do it.
There are problems in trying to change out the crossbars that I won't try to explain. Suffice to say, I would have already done it, if it was not a major undertaking.
I am strongly thinking of building a new steel from scratch and use only the neck and fret board, the changer, pull rods, pedal pull rods and pedals and the keyless tuners from the Excel.
Of course replacing the changer axle with a stronger metal is tantamount. The more I think about it, the more I am convinced I can either totally eliminate or greatly reduce the two problems with considerable thought and dexterity.
I am sorry and this will win no awards, but this has LONG been overlooked by the manufacturers. It is HIGH time these problems are acknowledged, the root cause identified and the problem cured once and for all. This along with one more pet peave. And that one is, the tops of the strings NOT being flat at the first few frets. That one has been annoying to me since I first put a raised nut on my first steel guitar--a converted Sears Silvetone when I was trying to learn to play. Come to think of it, I am STILL trying to learn to play.
I would opt any day for less color and style hype, for a PSG that did NOT have these problems.
Thanks again to all who have expressed their kindness. I have not posted for a long time. It is good to be once again contributing.
God bless you all,
carl
Carl
great to have you back
Ages ago you started a thread about the untrue return problem when a string is raised (or lowered) twice and there was talk that this being caused by flexing of the cross shaft. Did you ever try replacing the shaft with hardened steel ?
I have this problem on my U12. The worst effect is when I play strings 9,8 & 6 with A&B engaged, go to the suspended chord (by raising 9 from B to D) and then release the B-> D lever on string 9 to get back to where I started - but now string 9 is noticeably sharp.
(I now have some hardened shafts but haven't got round to installing them yet)
Mick
great to have you back
Ages ago you started a thread about the untrue return problem when a string is raised (or lowered) twice and there was talk that this being caused by flexing of the cross shaft. Did you ever try replacing the shaft with hardened steel ?
I have this problem on my U12. The worst effect is when I play strings 9,8 & 6 with A&B engaged, go to the suspended chord (by raising 9 from B to D) and then release the B-> D lever on string 9 to get back to where I started - but now string 9 is noticeably sharp.
(I now have some hardened shafts but haven't got round to installing them yet)
Mick
