2nd String half stop.

Allan Thompson · Post by **Allan Thompson** » 26 Mar 2002 5:46 am

On my Emmons Push Pull the half stop on the second string lower is very positive. I have recently acquired an all pull guitar that I like the sound of. Apart from having to put compensators on it which the Push Pull does not need the only other problem is the half stop on the second string. Have any of you guys found a way to make the half stop more useable, or is the change better put on another lever?

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 26 Mar 2002 6:23 am

Most modern all-pull guitars do not have a dedicated 2nd string half-stop. What is very often done instead is to use the split-tuning mechanics to perform the half-stop. This is how it works. There is also a 9th string lower on the same knee lever. The return spring on the 9th string is extended until there is a signficant amount of pressure felt when engaging the knee lever. Then, the 2nd string half-stop is tuned on the regular 9th string nylon end-plate tuner at the point where you feel the resistance of the 9th string return spring. You can NOT tune the 9th string lower since it would change the point of resistance of the return spring. Instead, to tune the 9th string lower, you use the split-tuning screw. And lastly, you tune the full lower of the 2nd string with the regular nylon end-plate tuner.[This message was edited by Jeff Lampert on 26 March 2002 at 06:27 AM.]

Kenny Forbess · Post by **Kenny Forbess** » 26 Mar 2002 9:08 pm

Allan, did you not get the half-stop installed on your Derby, that we were talking about ?
My directions might not have been clear enough.
According to what you described, it sound's just like the one on my late model Derby and the 2002 Emmons Legrande II.

I have dis-engaged the one on my Derby because I have it set up like Jeff is describing, I like it better that way also.

E-mail me with questions if you'd like me to help you.
KF

Tim Rowley · Post by **Tim Rowley** » 26 Mar 2002 9:23 pm

Allan,

If you are a bit of a mechanic, you can positively solve the problem by installing a stock Emmons half-stop tuner on your all-pull guitar. This inexpensive device consists of a spring-loaded rod with a tunable knurled collar in the middle and standard Emmons spools and rod collars on both ends (just like the half-tone tuners, spools, and rod collars used on the push-pull). One spool attaches to an old-style LeGrande bellcrank mounted on the knee lever cross shaft, the other end to an aluminum stanchion bracket. This half-stop tuner is adjustable for any desired amount of tension and travel and really works well! No longer is it necessary to be a slave to the return spring on the 9th string.

I lower my 9th string on a different lever than the 2nd string lower, and don't presently use a double lower on the 2nd string. But if I ever decide I need that C# note on my 2nd string I will use one of these Emmons half-stops. My Legrande II has one of these stops on the E-F-F# raise (Danny Hullihen installed it) and it's flawless. I mean when you engage it you can feel it "click" as it picks up the significantly extra resistance of the integral spring. There is virtually no tendency to over-ride this type of half-stop. It works equally well with raises or lowers. For more information contact Danny Hullihen here on the Steel Guitar Forum, he can explain exactly how it works and probably has the parts in stock. Or Bobbe Seymour can definitely help you out.

Tim R.

Bobby Boggs · Post by **Bobby Boggs** » 26 Mar 2002 11:45 pm

On my Legrandes I use a combination. I have mine set up as Jeff mentioned.But I use just a little spring tension as Tim explained. bb[This message was edited by Bobby Boggs on 26 March 2002 at 11:52 PM.]

Winnie Winston · Post by **Winnie Winston** » 27 Mar 2002 3:13 am

On my Kline I lower the 2nd and the 9th. I just played with the length of the bellcrank on both until I get the "D" on the 2nd just as the 9th gets picked up. Then they both lower to a C#. It works like a charm.
Long ago I saw a Dekley that had it done similarly. The problem was that when the 9th string picked up the trravel was too long and by the time the 2nd was at a C#, the 9th was a bit too low. The fix was easy-- just add a PULL rod to the 9th string and raise it back to a C# as it completes the full throw. It was a very clever solution.

Winnie

Dave Alfstad · Post by **Dave Alfstad** » 27 Mar 2002 5:03 am

I made a half-stop for my push-pull emmons. It works GREAT, it doesn't rely on the use of other strings, you can adjust the tension and it is completely tuneable. Here are pictures of what I did. I had to have the bracket made at a local machine shop. It cost less that $20.
http://www.geocities.com/steelin1/halfstop01.jpg
http://www.geocities.com/steelin1/halfstop02.jpg
http://www.geocities.com/steelin1/halfstop03.jpg

Apparently you will have to type the address in yourself because geocities won't let me link directly to these pictures anymore. Just type in the URL in your address bar and you will see the pictures.

I hope this helps.

Dave Alfstad
Indianola, Iowa[This message was edited by Dave Alfstad on 27 March 2002 at 05:12 AM.]

Jim Smith · Post by **Jim Smith** » 27 Mar 2002 6:34 am

Winnie, it's D-E-K-L-E-Y!

(sorry, long standing joke, like "Mullen"), but thanks for acknowledging the method. It was a long time ago, but I think I was the one that came up with that idea.

Dave, the links work for me just fine.

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 29 Mar 2002 1:15 pm

Winnie Winston writes:

"On my Kline I lower the 2nd and the 9th. I just played with the length of the bellcrank on both until I get the "D" on the 2nd just as the 9th gets picked up. Then they both lower to a C#. It works like a charm."

Yes, this works and I know of some players who do this. If you have an Emmons' LeGrande or other PSG that uses the Emmons' type "slit tuner", there is even an embelishment to this. And it keeps one from having to toy with different length pull rods or searching for the correct hole in the bellcranks to time it.

Do this if you have this type of guitar and would like to have it.

1. Use the 9th string lower nylon tuner to tune the D note on the 2nd string.

2. Use the 9th string "split tuner" allen screw to tune the 9th string C#.

3. Adjust the tension on the 9th string return lever to achieve the desired "stiffness" to the change.

It works like a charm. Jean Shepard's steel guitar player on the Orpy wrote me a very nice letter about doing this after I posted it the first time several years ago. He said that several other players on the Opry had done it after they saw his.

Good luck if you try it and God bless you,

carl

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 29 Mar 2002 4:48 pm

Allan, I, along with several other steelers, decided to use separate levers for the 1/2 and full-tone change on the second string. Half-stops work for some players, and others (like myself) are continually dissatisfied with trying to get both "smoothness", and a "positive half-stop" at the same time. I gladly sacrifice one "lost" change to get two other changes that work to perfection.

richard burton · Post by **richard burton** » 30 Mar 2002 8:09 am

I don't like the extra pressure required when lowering the second string a full tone, so I disabled the half stop, and have learned how to accurately get a half tone drop on the second, purely through practise.

Michael Johnstone · Post by **Michael Johnstone** » 30 Mar 2002 2:13 pm

I shouldn't spill the beans on this too soon cause it's not quite perfected,but at the risk of getting off into "Lucky 7" land,here it is: I'm working on a half stop which uses two interlocking eliptical cams w/a roller bearing at the point of contact.It looks sort of like an elongated version of the Chinese Yin/Yang symbol and works in such a way that the stroke gets easier as you push it.It uses the same principal as a Nautilus cam found on excercise equipment only in reverse.In theory it should be possible to get the second half of the stroke to be just as easy as the first half - because it makes up for the added spring tension after the half stop picks up.Of course in physics there's no free lunch,so you pay for the easier 2nd half stroke w/a slightly longer 2nd half stroke.I do have a working prototype on my Fender 800 and it feels pretty good to me. I'm still tweaking but it is already a significant improvement to this traditionally troublesome device.Stay tuned..... -MJ-