Keys of songs modified to accommodate the guitar player?

[Joachim Kettner]

What I mean is in for example "C'est La Vie" by Emmylou Harris: It's in the key of B flat. The steel player can take advantage of the open strings a half step below the 1st fret in the open position, which Hank DeVito often did in the song.
Or imagine "Day Tripper" in D instead of E, how would the signature lick sound? Not very effective I suppose.
Are there examples of compromises that the singer made to make it easier for the player, or am I only imagining this?

[Richard Sinkler]

Happens often. Sometimes to placate the guitar player, but most often the singer. We do "C'est La Vie" in D. I have had singers/bands play in keys more suited for me. One is "Look At Us". The drummer sings it and Eb is too high for him. He lowered it in D (but really wanted to go to Db), which makes the intro lick have to use a slide down to open strings and sounds horrible. I had to figure out a way to play that A7 chord without having to slide off the strings. He also does "Crazy" in F which both the guitar player and I hate (well I would hate it in any key - I hate the song).

[Dave Hopping]

Joachim,I'd put it the other way round,at least for local cover bands,and call it players having to compromise for a marginal singer....OK,on that level,cover bands need to replicate their material as close to the recording as they can get it,which includes doing it in the original key just as much as they need to sing the lyric and play the instrumental hooks as they were recorded.It just sounds wrong otherwise..."Day Tripper" in D is a great example.Can't sing as high as Paul? Get someone who can or else don't cover it.It's true in this case a six-stringer can(sort of)replicate George's guitar part in drop-D,but it'll still sound wrong.


EDIT: Since I never have anything to do with karaoke,I don't know.Do modern karaoke systems have pitch shifting or(horrors!)Auto-tune?

[Dave Little]

A singer isn't "marginal" just because they have a different singing range than the singer on the record. A "musician" plays for the singer in whatever key the "singer" wants. Period.

[Gary Dunn]

A singer isn't "marginal" just because they have a different singing range than the singer on the record. A "musician" plays for the singer in whatever key the "singer" wants. Period.

exactly and well said...

[Dave Hopping]

A singer isn't "marginal" just because they have a different singing range than the singer on the record. A "musician" plays for the singer in whatever key the "singer" wants. Period.

Now we all should(and do)respect diversity of talent,and we all have had to prop up singers who attempt material they can't really do properly.Ideally,that's what karaoke and open mic nite are for.There is no "civil right" to do it wrong in business.I'd say "period",but a government official already has the rights to that word.

[Richard Sinkler]

EDIT: Since I never have anything to do with karaoke,I don't know.Do modern karaoke systems have pitch shifting or(horrors!)Auto-tune?

Every Karaoke system I have seen, professional computer programs, have the ability to change keys, but only a few keys up or down, before they sound bad. Some just limit you as to how far you can change the key. I have seen none that have autotune, but that could just be because the people that showed me their systems didn't use it or even know about it.

[Richard Sinkler]

A singer isn't "marginal" just because they have a different singing range than the singer on the record. A "musician" plays for the singer in whatever key the "singer" wants. Period.

That's right. They pay me to make them sound better, no matter what key they sing a song in. That is my job.

[David Nugent]

I totally agree with the statement that the primary job of a sideman is to compliment the vocalist in whatever key that they choose, but on the other hand as Clint Eastwood stated; "A man's got to know his limitations!" Too often while watching shows such as 'Midwest Country' I have noticed otherwise competent artists choose material that is totally unsuited for their vocal abilities (Maggie Mae comes immediately to mind when making some questionable choices in material) and no amount of tasteful backup or change in key is going to compensate for that. Yes, it is our job to back them to the best of our abilities but on the other hand, I feel that it is also their responsibility to choose material to which they can do justice...JMO.

[John Billings]

Some tipsy gal gets on stage and wants to sing "Crazy" in Bb? I turn to the band and signal A. Works every time.

[Cal Sharp]

I got a gig one time because the previous steel guitar player insulted the artist's cajones by complaining that he did songs in chick keys, like F# and B.

[Lane Gray]

I think people have a right to make a song their own, which means moving the key to suit their voices.
BUT, if they want to try to sound like the original, then they gotta do it in the original key.
But I'm not gonna tell Vince Gill he shouldn't cover Ernest Tubb.
But he might as well not play the Leon/Billy licks, they won't sound the same in Vince's keys.

[Joachim Kettner]

One is "Look At Us". The drummer sings it and Eb is too high for him. He lowered it in D (but really wanted to go to Db), which makes the intro lick have to use a slide down to open strings and sounds horrible.

Richard that's a good example.
Could it be that John Hughey made a suggestion to Vince Gill to play it in that key, to avoid this position?
We'll never know

[Cal Sharp]

But I'm not gonna tell Vince Gill he shouldn't cover Ernest Tubb.

Oddly enough, Martina McBride does "Thanks A Lot" in the original key.

[Pete Burak]

The singer in one recent band told the Tele guy he wants to do "Only Daddy Gonna Walk The Line", in "D"!
He said, "Yeah, just kick it off in D".


[Ya might have to be a guitar player to get that one].

[Dave Hopping]

The singer in one recent band told the Tele guy he wants to do "Only Daddy Gonna Walk The Line", in "D"!
He said, "Yeah, just kick it off in D".


[Ya might have to be a guitar player to get that one].

Up a step and a half (or down a fifth) from Linda Ronstadt's cover.Experts are divided as to whether Miss Ronstadt could ever do anything wrong,but her version comes close.

[Fred Glave]

I think that there are many very good vocalists who's ranges are quite different from each other. The key of a song can always be transposed. In fact that's part of what being a musician is all about. The original song was most likely written in a specific key to suit the original singer's range in the first place. So I don't consider it a failing of the vocalist, it's just that unlike our instruments, voices are all different.

[Sean Borton]

I think people have a right to make a song their own, which means moving the key to suit their voices.
BUT, if they want to try to sound like the original, then they gotta do it in the original key.

What Lane says is exactly where I stand on the subject.

For me when you change the key you change the mood, and sometimes the feel or emotion the song has. When notes become inaccessible (ie: Day Tripper in D) it's drastic, but even when notes still lay out properly (put a capo on and play it in F) the song will take on a subtle, emotional change.

I'm not suggesting that you should not change the key of a song, you have to do what works. Just make sure the song is still a keeper after you make the change.

EDIT: I would like to add that both keys and tempos are not taking lightly during a recording session. From my experience the producer will work tirelessly with the artist to make sure both bring out the best in the song.

[Richard Sinkler]

I have to disagree with those who think that changing keys takes away anything from the song, especially emotion. Drastic key changes may make the tonality of a players licks on a record sound different, but it shouldn't always stop one from playing those licks. And if you can't inject emotion into a song played in a different key than the original, you're not doing your job. Try playing "Crazy" in F. Talk about drastic, and the solo's that the guitar player and I do can be played in the new key, but they sound drastically different than it being played in Bb, which is the key that every singer (except our drummer). But it still has all of the emotion that is in the song at the original key (I am only assuming Bb was the original key as that is the key most girl singers sing it in around here).

A great example, again using "Look At Us". This video has Vince doing the song in D. Tommy White has no problem injecting a lot of emotion into the song.

Richard that's a good example.
Could it be that John Hughey made a suggestion to Vince Gill to play it in that key, to avoid this position?
We'll never know

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n8pRuWvAmrA

Him doing it in D on stage makes me think that John may have talked him into doing it in Eb so he could play the intro better. It's not impossible to play the song in D and get the intro right, but you have to be real good at sliding the bar off at the nut without making a lot of noise (like me).

[Ray Harrison]

In a lot of local bands you may not have but a couple of singers and all of a sudden a hit song comes out that everybody request. Now the song just may not fit either of the bands singers styles or voices, but the crowd still wants to hear the request.
If a song doesn't fit your range or style, a singer should pass it on to someone else. Sometimes you're just stuck with what you have to work with.

[Larry Rafferty]

[quote="Richard Sinkler"] Try playing "Crazy" in F. Talk about drastic, and the solo's that the guitar player
and I do can be played in the new key, but they sound drastically different than it being played in Bb, which is
the key that every singer (except our drummer). But it still has all of the emotion that is in the song at the
original key (I am only assuming Bb was the original key as that is the key most girl singers sing it in around here).

Richard,
I have always tried to play songs in their original keys.
I learned the song "Crazy" (written by Willie Nelson) from sheet music... and it is written in the key of F.
I play it in the key of F whether I'm playing piano, guitar, accordion, or pedal steel. I have also played it
behind singers in the key of Bb, Eb, and C.
I believe it is the musicians job to make whomever is fronting the song sound good regardless of Key.

[Tommy Boswell]

I have to wonder if Buck Owens sang Together Again in C# (instead of C) to accommodate Tom Brumley's pedal steel solo?

[Mike Perlowin]

I think it depends on the song. Day tripper and Pretty Woman have signature guitar licks that have to be played in E to sound right.

[Richard Sinkler]

Try playing "Crazy" in F. Talk about drastic, and the solo's that the guitar player
and I do can be played in the new key, but they sound drastically different than it being played in Bb, which is
the key that every singer (except our drummer). But it still has all of the emotion that is in the song at the
original key (I am only assuming Bb was the original key as that is the key most girl singers sing it in around here).

Richard,
I have always tried to play songs in their original keys.
I learned the song "Crazy" (written by Willie Nelson) from sheet music... and it is written in the key of F.
I play it in the key of F whether I'm playing piano, guitar, accordion, or pedal steel. I have also played it
behind singers in the key of Bb, Eb, and C.
I believe it is the musicians job to make whomever is fronting the song sound good regardless of Key.

Exactly. I didn't know the original was in F. I hate the song so much that I have no desire to hear it, no matter what key.

[Asa Brosius]

i remember hearing about a psg capo, here and there on the forum. in some cases this could be the answer, complimenting the singer with a unique range(95% of the time our job)while allowing for open string use in unusual keys.