The Steel Guitar Forum

I just discovered that Fender is now selling Silverface "'68 Custom Twin Reverb", "'68 Custom Deluxe Reverb", and "'68 Custom Princeton Reverb" amps. Has anyone had a chance to check them out from a pedal steel aspect? The Twin Reverb seems interesting, and wondered if it is an improvement over the '65 Reissue Twin Reverb. They are touting them as being "hand wired tube sockets", but not sure how meaningful that is. There are a lot more solder connections in there than just the tube sockets I would think.

Or, is this just a superb marketing ploy that I got sucked into?

-Chuck

Bet a dollar that means the tube sockets have wires going to the PCB.

Zane, I know very little about electronics, but I assume your reference to "PCB" is an acronym for Printed Circuit Board??? Did not see anything that gave a hint about whether the amps had printed circuit boards, or not. Was hoping some of the amp/technical savvy gurus here on the forum might have some insight into what these amps might be like.

-Chuck

Marketing ploy. Business as usual for fender. Buying a "new" silverface makes no sense at all.. For the price [$1300] you can buy a real late 60's early 70's non master SF Twin, have it gone through and still have a few hundred left over. a 1970 twin just sold on ebay for $490, and I still see good ones in the 5-6 hundred dollar range locally.. They are no longer an easy sell, and guys let them go cheap.Why anyone would buy a "new" one is beyond me... bob

The reissue Silver face amps that I have seen are the 1968 transitional silver with drip strip amps.
The originals were basically black face amps with a silver party dress on. I know because I own almost a complete collection of the originals, and many original blackace Fenders. I think late in 68 they went away from the blue mallory caps, which was a mistake. They have a lot to do with the black face sound.
If you can buy original drip strip 68 models for 500-600 you better do so all day long.
I paid around 800 for my Twin Reverb and 750 for my Pro Reverb about 5-6 years ago and was happy to do so.
Check the price on Ebay these days for clean original 1968 models.
Lefty

LEfty, post some pics of your collection

Chick, I'm not an amp guy, just a guy with a bit of electronics training and a lot of curiosity.
Yes I meant printed circuit boards.
The original amps had all the components (resistors, capacitors, et c) mounted by hand, with connection to other components made by individual wires.

The reissues (and all the new ones) have the connections made by the printed circuit, which is cheaper, but less robust. They also are using lesser caps.
There are probably more reasons, but the amp guys here and my own amp guy mainly object to the cheap construction.
They regard them as time bombs of job security, because the connections on the board fail, but never all at once.

(A bunch of my knowledge is gathered from reading the words of Tim, Ken, et Al here).

I think Bob is pretty much on target. My kid just sold a very clean sept 67 drip edge Super Reverb, original CTS speakers in an Anvil case. Had it for sale in different places for a looonng time at 12 or 1300. Finally let the whole thing fly for around 900ish on ebay. The big Fenders just don't seem to bring that much when all is said and done. Deluxe Reverbs are a little more, Vibrolux Reverbs are a little more than Deluxes. Princeton's are a tad less. That's around here, so maybe it varies regionally somewhat. I don't understand reissuing "vintage gear" of pieces that were the reason people started buying, using and collecting "vintage" in the first place. A new 3 bolt, big head Strat and imitation silver panel Twin? Why?

Brian,
That is a really good deal if the amp was clean. I have been keeping up with the market for many years, an do not see those deals, period.
The reason I collect them is that my first fender was a 1968 large cabinet bandmaster. Played a lot of gigs with it, and still have it.
Here is a picture of part of my collection.
regards,
Lefty

Wow!!!

Drip-Edge silverface Fenders are my favorites. Nice collection there.

I've got a Princeton Reverb, Deluxe Reverb, and a Bandmaster Reverb - all 1968 drip-edge. My '69 Champ almost made the cut.

B

It was a great deal. My kid bought it for $600 a couple years ago but it needed a little bit of sorting out. So the new owner got a good deal on a great amp that was ready to go.. but those deals are out there. Cool picture..

Drip edge are the best deal going in classic Fender amps... there are a few circuit mods that can be removed (the cathode bypass on the finals, for one) and the wiring is the same old cloth push-back wiring that the blackfaces have... basically, a blackface for a silverface price.

I've seen and played examples of the 68 reissue Princeton Reverb and Deluxe Reverb. Yes, there are wires going from the tube sockets to the PCB. That's a step in the right direction, but it would be good if 1) the pots also were hand-wired to the PCB; and 2) the PCB was of good construction and easy to service. I haven't been inside either of these, but those issues are two of my biggest beefs with reissue amps of many stripes. Of course, component selection is also certainly an issue, but at least if they got the basic construction and serviceability down, that could be dealt with.

One of the differences in these amps is the presence of a somewhat hot-rodded channel, more like a blackface Bassman preamp section, I believe. On the Princeton, the only channel is hot-rodded. On the Deluxe and Twin, there's a straight AB568 (I think) on the Vibrato channel and the Bassman preamp on the normal channel.

Overall, I liked the sound of the '68 reissue Princeton and Deluxe I tried - I played 'em with a '68 Tele and a 90s Les Paul Standard. For me, the Deluxe is the more useful setup - the Bassman preamp is nice, but I wouldn't trade off the classic preamp for it. But having both is kinda' nice. My buddy (a Fender dealer) hasn't gotten the Twin yet - I was honestly surprised he got one of them - as I say below, as commodities, silverface Twin Reverbs are way undervalued.

Again, I have no idea what the workmanship and serviceability is like on these. But if the history of most PCB reissues like this is any indication, I'm sure I would much rather have an original silverface, which as Brian and Bob correctly point out, can be had in the same general ballpark range as the street price on these. And that is not speculation. The last two SF Princeton Reverbs I found (in the last year or two) were in the $700 range and I bought a SF Deluxe Reverb for $800 last year. Twin Reverbs can be had for a song - I mean $400-500 (later silverface) and $600-800 (earlier silverface). Maybe a bit more for drip-panel, but really - people will dump them for less when they need the money. I've turned some down in that general range because I have simply decided I'm sick of screwing around with Twins. They're too loud for what I need, I'm tired of toting them, and if I ever want to sell one, I get beat up all day long.

Well I dunno, but it seems a bit bizarre to be reissuing amps that are all over the streets in their original form for maybe half the money.


Lets see, should I get that original SF 70 or 71 Twin reverb for about $700, it's really clean and sounds great or should I get that SF RI for $1300 ?

I guess I should ask my wife !

IMHO, the Silverface Fenders sound the same from the drip edge 68's right up until about 71 or 72... If I found a clean 71 for $500, I would take it sooner than a 68 for $900.. That being said, the big silverface Fenders are a tough sell these days, No one wants them, and they run cheap.. Princeton/Deluxe/Vibrolux are whats bringing the money, and even those amps aren't as insane as they were.. Hell, I just sold a BF Showman locally for $550 and was lucky to get it.. Even tried here a few times, bur was unable to move it..
The bloom is off the rose, unless you are talking
" collectors grade"... However, even they don't fetch the money they did 10 years ago... bob

Bob Carlucci wrote: The bloom is off the rose

Agreed.., the ship has sailed. I had a dog of a time selling a 64 Tremolux original set and a 64 Bandmaster set last year. I finally moved the BM set and had to break the Tremolux set apart to get the cash out of it, what a shame.IT survived 48 years as a pair and then, NOT.

I have a really clean 71 Twin Reverb, (non MV last year) value about $800, last year I did happen to sell my 76 DR and 78 PR...got out of them what I had in them, nobody was beating down the door to get them but they sure low balled the offers. Both were clean as a whistle.

I just don't see the need for more RI's on the market but then again I don't see as well as I used to either...

Lefty wrote:...my first fender was a 1968 large cabinet bandmaster...

Lefty, those amps are beauties! I recently posted in a similar thread about my old Bandmaster that I had restored. It didnt cost me an arm or a leg either. It was one of my first amps (built in the early 70's post drip edge, but still had the giant 2X12 cab). Dont have the cab anymore, but the head sounds great now! I also lucked out finding an original blackface '66 Bandmaster and cab a few years ago for $550. Love them Jensen P12N's

Not all Silverface models are the same going into the 70s.
For instance when Twins were being changed master vol etc. Deluxe Reverb circuits hardly changed from Blackface into the mid 70s. 74-75 Deluxe can be a real bargain add a new speaker and tubes tone is hard to beat.
There are differences in the cabinets.. A 67 Twin cab seems much lighter to me than a 68 cab.
I had a 70 Twin that was outstanding and seemed to be lighter to me.
The difference I notice in the non-master twins is with later model Twins people will more often than not ask you to turn down but with pre-71 Twins more often than not I am asked to turn up.
I am not a fan of the newer Fenders for several reasons.

That reminds me.. If anyone wants a 1968 Drip edge Twin Reverb.. A friend of mine is trying to sell for $700.
She got it from Marty Stewart.
These do not ship well buyer would be 100% responsible for shipping. Ship amp and cab separate and cross your fingers.

If anyone wants a 1968 Drip edge Twin Reverb.. A friend of mine is trying to sell for $700.
She got it from Marty Stewart.

Ship amp and cab separate and cross your fingers.

If it's in good condition, that's a good deal - if I had to have a Twin, that would be the one for me. I agree on separating chassis and cab, I'd even ship tubes separately in a small box. If you separate things, the weight is to the point where you can pack it so it can be dropped off an 8-foot high conveyor belt with a reasonable probability of not getting destroyed. Shipping everything together is tough.

I totally agree that the earlier silverface amps are a huge bargain in the vintage guitar world.

shipping a Twin is a piece of cake - I do it all of the time. Get a good box, pull the tubes out, make sure there are good foam corners and pad it very well. Sometimes I use instapak RT around the sides. With that stuff, you could throw the amp off a truck and it would survive.

I think it depends on the speakers, Tim. You really need to expect the possibility of an 8-foot drop off a conveyor belt, and if you're talking, let's say, about a 90-lb Twin Reverb with a pair of JBLs or something like that, it's gonna take a helluva packing job to deal with that. An 8-foot drop off a conveyor is not that unusual, I really think it's safer to break them up.

Consider, for example, an object falling about 3 meters (around 9 feet). The velocity at the end of that fall is sqrt(2*g*d) (where g is the gravitational constant 9.81m/sec^2 and d is the distance in meters) = sqrt(2 * 9.81m/sec^2 * 8ft) = 7.67m/sec, which is in the ballpark of 17 MPH.

Now consider the average impulsive force (change in momentum / collision time) due to a 90lb (40kg) mass changing its velocity from 7.67m/sec to 0m/sec in about 0.1sec (pretty typical for a fall like this):

impulse force (Newtons) = m*Δv/t where m is the mass, Δv is the change in velocity, t is the time interval of the change in velocity, so impulse-force = 40*7.67/0.1 = 3068kg-m/sec^2 (Newtons), or about 690 pounds of force.

And that's assuming that everything is perfectly rigid. If anything comes loose, there will be collisions between that hulking amp frame cruising at 17 MPH and the smaller object(s), and they're gonna be on the losing end. Transformers, speakers, and especially tubes - but that's why you always have to take the tubes out and pack them separately (and very well). But it doesn't take much motion to wipe any of these smaller components out. That's why I tend to separate the chassis and box on a big amp like this - it cuts the overall weight down and minimizes the potential relative motion between parts.

Of course, the ways to minimize the impulsive force are to decrease the weight, decrease the relative velocity change, and/or increase the collision time - the latter with padding that slows the movement of the packed item and extends its collision time. But you really have to have effective padding to protect a 90 lb amp from this kind of drop. Cut the weight in half to 45 pounds, and I think it's clear that 345 pounds is a helluvalot different than 690 pounds, and the component internal parts are typically significantly lighter and less likely to tear away from the main body.

I see tons of stuff get damaged in shipping. Large manufacturers and big-box stores have lots of it - they amortize the losses over the large volume. If they also use shipping insurance (I doubt they do on a lot of stuff), they have more clout with their shipper, with whom they do a lot of business.

ok, pull the tubes and the speakers :p

http://www.musicvilla.com/fender-68-cus ... face-amps/

looks like they are doing the Deluxe and Princeton too

huh

this is crazy! I really want to see the guts of these things

If I were to ever sell and ship a Twin Reverb or amp of that weight, actually any amp over say 50 pounds, I would ship it in 3 packages, Chassis, Speakers and cabinet.

True story.. I bought a used Custom Vibrolux from Guitar Center, don't recall where it came from, it was a reasonable price. It showed up cabinet damaged on one of the top corners , transformer side...I took it back to the local store, they gave me a full refund, I think it was $600. The manger was really upset , now he had this really nice amp with a broken top corner and it wasn't even his amp but he had to take it back. So he and I got to talking, he sold me the amp for $250. I took it home, took it all apart, cut the tolex seam very clean, re-glued and doweled the wood corner, let it set under weight for a couple of days, re-glued the tolex and low and behold it was repaired, pretty much I was the only one who could tell there was even any damage previous, unless you were a Fender amp corner inspector you would never know there was any repair work done. It really looked like brand new...

here's the best part, I didn't actually care for the amp, it was too low on headroom for me, so I took it to a guitar show and traded it heads up for a 71 Twin Reverb,all original, fully operational with stock speakers, just filthy. made the trade took the Twin home , took it apart gave it a full blown out car wash bath...put it back together with 2 new EMMI 12's and it is now my primary amp. For $250 and some labor. Oh yeah, the twin had some very minor top right corner damage as well , piece of cake...

truth...sometimes damage ain't so bad but I suppose in most cases it is !