The Steel Guitar Forum

I am buying a new guitar, if it has this system, is it obsolete?

Sounds like a standard student model to me.

Hey fellas, thanks for the help. Just talked to Fred, and the two up and one down is sufficient for a beginner. My S10-3x5 is a pro model (entry level)but at only 1769.00 it is a bargin. Anyway, Bob please close.

Ernie

Maybe I should have said economy model.

I believe some of the early Sho~Bud changers were only 2 up and 1 down.

Early rack/barrel Buds were 1+ and 1-

My first Sho~Bud was a fingertip and I wonder if that wasn't 2 up and 1 down.

PS: Do you remember an old photographic shop in Silver City? I have a baby picture that was taken there.

Hey John. no doubt the S103x5 is meant for light duty, not sufficient for Buddy Cage, but the advice I got before I ordered my steel, was get the best quality. All the starters and student models may be inexpensive, but disappoint.
a real pro model costs close to 5000.00, and great for a touring player, but for me, 2000.00 was all I wanted to invest. I could have spent the 5 grand, but it would look out of place with me behind it. great talkin to ya, thanks for the reply, and wish me luck.
Ernie

Ernie

NOT all student models will disappoint !!!!

there are a few really good ones for under $1500.00 NEW

You will like the Justice S-10. I've had mine for a while now, and have no regrets, it's a very good steel guitar. I would call it light weight, but not light duty. It's very solid and stable while being light in weight. Mine is 3x4. The 2 raise, 1 lower arrangement works fine. You will find that it plays very smoothly, with very little effort. And it sounds very good too. You have all the normal changes found on other guitars that have the same number of pedals and levers.

Erv Niehaus wrote:My first Sho~Bud was a fingertip and I wonder if that wasn't 2 up and 1 down.

PS: Do you remember an old photographic shop in Silver City? I have a baby picture that was taken there.

Vaguely Erv, I think it was named "Topmillers" studio owned by Vic Topmiller...man that was before my memory even worked at all hehehe. Stormy !..... btw a person can't go wrong with one of Fred's guitars they are as good as it gets

I'm sure your right Calvin, anyway, what do I know. did check out a lot of student models, but got a lot of feedback from exp players that advised getting pro model.

Thanks Bill for your comments, looking forward to playing my S10. Again not sure just where it fits in ,in the world of steel. No one has said that I made a mistake ordering a steel from Fred. I am probably overthinkin it. Wow, I sure do love talkin to all you steelers. I hope I can get the hang of it.

Ernie

You won't go wrong dealing with Fred!

Ernie - we're in agreement. I think you got good advice, and from my point of view, there's nothing wrong with student models or economy models. I am currently in between my first steel, a student model (with 2 up and 1 down) that I even gigged with, and my second one on its way, an S-10 3x5 economy model, and I can assure you I won't be spending $5 grand on a toy anytime soon. In fact, the total amount I will have spent on both guitars together is much less than even half of that. I was simply saying that 2 up and 1 down is something you'd see on a student guitar or an economy one, and doesn't make your steel obsolete at all. The opposite, actually, in my view as it's kind of standard ... for certain economy and student models.

The only thing I'd disagree with you on is that you have to spend close to $5 grand to get a "real pro model." In fact, you see several of them go for much less every day on the forum. I have to keep believing that so little guys like me have a chance!

Fred told me that triple changers mean you are going to have more pedals and levers, and for custom and personal tunings. He also said that his changers are the same on all models, just function differently.I think. Doesn't split tuning give me a lot more options? I wonder if Buddy Cage ever asked these questions. Should I join a band before I learn to play? Should I start writin songs? I hate flyin, should I get a tour bus? Well, I better figure out a stage name.
Ernie

I'm not an expert, just now having sold my only steel I've ever owned, which was a 2-up-and-1-down guitar, so take this with a grain of salt, but I think there are two primary advantages to a changer with more holes in the fingers.

For one thing, a 2-up/1-down limits the number of pulls you can have on one string. Take the 4th string, the E. If you have a standard F lever, a standard E lever, and a standard C pedal, then all of your holes on the changer for that string are taken, and you can't add anymore to it. Both "up" holes are taken by the C pedal (E to F#) and the F lever (E to F), and the down hole by the E lever (E to D#/Eb). If you wanted to add another change on that string, you couldn't do so without sacrificing those standard pulls.

Also, even if you don't need all six holes on any one finger, I'd imagine having a choice of hole on the finger would also affect pedal/lever travel somewhat, not unlike the way moving a rod up and down on a bell crank does, so you can tweak when the pull arrives at the desired note - which I think would be especially helpful if you're pulling more than one string with a single finger (wanting both to arrive at the desired pitch at the same time). There are many, many other people on here more knowledgeable than I on this who could no doubt add more to the conversation.

[EDIT - a third advantage of extra finger holes I believe is for a use which allows tuneable splits.]

John, sounds to me that you know quite a bit. I think i'm beginning to get it. I hope your getting another soon. you should have one, I am sure you can play.
Thanks for the comments

Ernie

Hope I'm proving some help and not further confusion. You may know this already, so excuse me if you do, but this is all because the bottom holes of the all-pull changer finger are dedicated lowering-pitch holes, and the top ones are dedicated raising-pitch holes.

In my few short years playing steel, I have learned an amazing amount 1) on here, and 2) by reading the old issues of Steel Guitarist that came with my subscription to the forum (or for like 5 extra bucks, or something). Winnie Winston had a few great columns in those magazines about the mechanics of pedal steels - not unlike the info in his book on mechanics. No doubt, I spend too much time reading about it and not enough time playing. But I have to admit - reading about steel is very enjoyable to me, almost as enjoyable as playing one - maybe even moreso in that I don't make audible mistakes when reading. The all-pull changer to me is one of those things that is at the same time both simple and genius / elegant. If you don't have those magazines yet, send the forum 5 bucks and gain priceless knowledge (as well as history) about pedal steel. But that's me - I have to know exactly how something works when I'm involved in it, and I've always been that way.

There may also be some good images or even animated GIFs on here someone could point you to via link to help you visualize it even more.

EDIT - here's one: http://steelguitar.com/maps/changer.html
Be sure and click on both "lowering" and "raising" to see both animations.

Ernie Galletta wrote:I am buying a new guitar, if it has this system, is it obsolete?

No, I wouldn't say it's obsolete...but, in all honesty, I would say that $1800 is an awful lot of money for a guitar like that.

Yes, it is an awful lot of money for a guitar like that. And worse....if you want a left handed model, you can add another $400 to that.

"Early rack/barrel Buds were 1+ and 1-"

That's correct Stormy, but,,,,,,The changer was only one part of the equation. The racks and barrels were an integral part of the changer mechanics. If you could fit 100 racks under the guitar, the changer could be considered as 100 up and 100 down. You could put as many barrels on a pull rod as you want, and had racks for. A GREAT system, and it's my favorite. That changer is unlimited as far as raise and lowers go.
Best,
JB

Gettin my guitar this week , as a beginner, it is way more steel than I require, but at 64 I can afford to indulge myself. I will have one of only "100" Justice custom steels. Fred is salt of the earth, and finished my steel ahead of schedule. I drove him crazy with questions that he answered with patience.

Thanks Fred.

Gettin my guitar this week , as a beginner, it is way more steel than I require, but at 64 I can afford to indulge myself. I will have one of only "100" Justice custom steels. Fred is salt of the earth, and finished my steel ahead of schedule. I drove him crazy with questions that he answered with patience.

Thanks Fred.

Great news there Ernie ,you won't find a nicer psg or a nicer more helpful guy than Fred ....Stormy