Push-Pull Tone---Myth or Fact ?

[richard burton]

It's now almost 50 years since the Emmons push-pull was first designed and manufactured.

These steels are now regarded as exhibiting the ultimate in pedal steel tone, and yet, at the time, nearly all the other manufacturers used another design of changer, the all-pull.

Indeed, even Emmons themselves abandoned the push-pull and started making all-pulls, and some push-pulls were converted to all-pulls by commercial steel mechanics.

So, back in the 70's, were the push-pulls not recognised as being the holy grail of tone, or is this tone a myth, honed over many years by people with rose-tinted glasses

Is it like the Fender Stratocaster vibrato, which Leo got right the first time, and then later on made the Fender Jaguar, with a totally different (and inferior) vibrato unit?

The fact that there are only two manufacturers (out of many) making a pedal steel with a push-pull type changer speaks volumes.

[Donny Hinson]

Definitely.

[Richard Damron]

Richard -

Thank you, thank you, THANK YOU!

Now we wait for the multitudes of misguided and brainwashed to skewer you unmercifully!

Richard

[Doug Beaumier]

Fact, not myth.

[Ken Metcalf]

Fact!... but more so to the player and somewhat lost to the audience like many things in music.
3-4th string whine sounds terrible to the player and is not so obvious out front.
PPs and Shobuds sound good to me and all pulls tend to have easier pedal action.
I prefer the stiffer action to super light action .. too touchy for me.
Not to mention PPs are more stable holding tune.
People wanted splits and more options along with easier action.
people also used to paint tweed amps to look black.

[Joseph Meditz]

Most manufacturers (of anything) drift toward what is easier and cheaper to manufacture as well as what is lighter and easier to maintain while still maintaining passable quality. It's what they can sell profitably and not what sounds best that is of interest to manufacturers. Hence the syllogism you are constructing is fallacious.

I don't have a push-pull, but every time there is a lineup of steels playing on the stage the PP stands out. It has a kind of reediness that the others lack. That's not to say it has the best tone, only that it does have a certain desirable quality that some find irresistible.

The situation with the vibrato is interesting. The Strat vibrato gives more tone shift per unit of bar deflection. Great for dive bombing. However, for plain music a Jazzmaster vibrato ought to give better control which may explain its popularity with surf music. I don't really know because I don't have one. I do have a Strat. Its vibrato is not only mechanically elegant but contributes to the signature Strat tone or quack. I too would say it is superior.

[Richard Damron]

Post the source(s) from which all claims have been shown to be true.

Conjecture not allowed.

Richard

[Jack Willis]

Go Richard!

[Roual Ranes]

It depends on who is commenting.

[Larry Bressington]

The 'Tone' is in the players that made them famous more than the Changer itself...We can convince ourselves of anything if the God's play them, and they did, mostly for publicity and political reasons...we also 'Glorify' the changer as some kind of mystic god, like it's a night and day difference. I am not denying they have GREAT TONE, i'm saying it's not because of the changer, maybe it's the wood of that time?

If buddy had of played a Dekley, we'd be worshiping over that one instead. Complete myth

Whoopsah daisy Richard, were you bored at home tonight watching Emerdale farm!

[Herb Steiner]

Post the source(s) from which all claims have been shown to be true.

Conjecture not allowed.

Richard

Thanks for explaining the ground rules, as if sources are "needed" to prove what point, exactly? That someone has to "justify" playing an Emmons Original for the All-Pull players to approve of his claims?



What is the conundrum to me is this: Why would anyone who plays and enjoys a PP possibly care what, if anything, a player of a modern guitar thought about the Emmons Originals' tone, pedal action, or anything?

In case nobody has noticed lately, my dudes, it's the All-Pull manufacturers and owners that make the claim about their guitar "sounding like a Push-Pull."

Nobody who plays a PP makes the claim "my guitar sounds just like a (insert your brand here)!"

Additonally, no one here in Forumland asks "how can I make my Emmons PP guitar sound like a Carter/Sho~Bud/Dekley/MSA/etc."

The guys playing Emmons Originals that I know discuss getting parts, how to find YET ANOTHER push-pull, who does the best set-up in their area, why are prices continually rising for the PP models, and similar topics that have little or nothing to do with the brand envy that seems endemic in many owners of other modern guitars.

Some PP owners choose to dis the Emmons for its various characteristics. Fair enough. Why do they bother playing one, I wonder?

Au contraire, I think that some of the guys with modern guitars resent and envy the fact that PP owners enjoy playing their horns so much, so they feel the need to have Emmons owners provide "proof" of their "claims."

[insert audible "sigh" here]

Here's my "proof," as it were: Take my word for it, or don't. It matters not one whit to me, or the Emmons players that I personally know. We're happy and don't need to justify anything to anyone.

I occasionally have an Emmons PP or two for sale. But don't bother with it, y'all; you'd probably think it was "too expensive."

[Greg Cutshaw]

I liked Buddy Emmon's tone and Buddy Charleton's tone better on their older Sho-Bud's than on their Emmon's brand guitars. Certainly Lloyd Green, Curly Chalker, Ralph Mooney, Maurice Anderson, Sneaky Pete, Jim Murphy and Pete Drake all set tone benchmarks and all without the Emmons push pull. I played a push pull Emmons for 10 years and never really cared for the squeaky sound of the high G# and E strings. Loved the smoothness of the mechanism though. Opinions abound about good tone and even what the definition of tone is. This is an endless debate ....


Greg

[Herb Steiner]

... Opinions abound about good tone and even what the definition of tone is. This is an endless debate ....

Greg

Exactly. Which is why I don't feel the need to "prove" any "claims" at all. To anyone. Except myself, that is, and the proof is in what I play.

[Larry Bressington]

Other than playing,...There's no better Sunday evening entertainment that the Steel Guitar Forum, it BEAT'S all soaps, and creates wonderful and welcoming Tension!

[Mike Schwartzman]

Herb Wrote:

It matters not one whit to me, or the Emmons players that I personally know. We're happy and don't need to justify anything to anyone.

That's the way that this guy (me) feels about it. My ears, my hands, feet and knees tell me: "I love this Push Pull guitar", and that's without comparing it to any other PSG. I have all pull guitars that are sweet guitars too. They are different because the changers/ mechanisms ARE different. So...(in a very subjective fashion) I say: Fact.

[Patrick Layher]

I went to the show in Dallas a few years back and drug my cousin with me. Shawn had not been exposed to steel guitar at all. There was a tribute to Tom Brumley with 7-8 steels and players on stage. When they got to the last player on the left, Shawn turned to me and asked "why does that guitar sound so different from the others?" I said I don't know but I'll go look. It was the only push pull on stage.

Pat

[Paul Sutherland]

In my years of playing pedal steel I've owned and played a Fender, a MSA, a ShoBud (with barrels), and a couple Ruslers (the ones from the 70s.) About five years ago I bought an Emmons D10 push pull.

The Emmons is the guitar that has the sound that I was always looking for. It has a snap and sparkle to the tone that I just didn't get with the other guitars. I would say it's like the difference between the bright tone of a tele versus the muffled fat tone of a Les Paul. Not a perfect analogy, but just what I can come up with right now.

I don't intend to prove anything to anyone. I just love the sound of my Emmons.

And YES, it sounds different!!!

[Bill L. Wilson]

My 1st Emmons, was a PP, S-10, w/6pedals, and 2knees, that I just never could get set up right. I now play an Emmons LeGrande II D10 8and5, and it plays and sounds fantastic. BUT, I have to admit, the PP, had that TONE, that was just a shade better. Can't explain it, but I heard the difference.

[Richard Damron]

I was - and am - referring to those who make the claim that a PP is the "best". They conveniently ignore the fact that "personal preference" is the governing factor - thus, they should be required to substantiate their claim.

I have experienced the captivating tone of one particular Emmons LeGrande II in Bobbe Seymour's shop. It is the "best" that I've ever heard - TO ME!

Enough of this crap of declaring that such-and-such is the "Holy Grail" of anything. Such supposedly irrefutable claims thus require proof. If no absolute proof is available then have the intelligence and the guts to acquiese to the import of "personal preference". To do anything less is solely to run one's mouth with an opinion. All such opinions are equally valid but serve as no reference to a truth.

When are some of the members of this Forum going to come down off of their high horses and recognize that indefinable taste dictates the instrument of choice and not the rants and raves of a select few who just happen to prefer one particular brand of instrument?

Beats all I've ever seen - and I've seen a potful in my 77 years.

If the unsubstantiated claims concerning a PP are true, then 30-odd guitar makers should quit building their designs or make clones of your beloved PP.

I, personally, think that they suck! That's my personal opinion and it reflects my preference. Why can't some folks grant me, and many others, their taste in an instrument? Rather narrow-minded I must say.

Richard

[Bill L. Wilson]

Fortunately for me all steel guitars look like an Emmons, and all want to sound like an Emmons. I've owned a Sho-Bud, that sounded good, but was no Emmons. My ZB, sounded fantastic, but it wasn't an Emmons. I'm just glad my Emmons is BLACK, cause we all know, they sound amazing. I traded my old PP, to a friend who said, every time he played that guitar on a record session, he would get comments on how great it sounded. Jay Dee, gets a purdy good tone on his PP. Before this ends up in the gutter, maybe I should'ev spelled out Push-Pull.

[Billy Carr]

I played a D-10PP for the first ten years I played, 71' thru 81'. All PP's don't have the ""PP growl". It depends on the player, his amps, pu's and just how the PP is actually set up. If one is set up right and the player understands what to do and what not to do with it under the hood, then a PP will sound like a PP, provided the player knows what he's after. I do know of one player that can improve the tone/sustain/timbre on a PP. Tommy Young can do it. I've played a PP, before and after, TY's worked his magic on it. The main reason I don't want another PP is simple. Keeping it in tune all the time plus the weight. AllPull guitars are so much easier to work on and if a player is like me, he'll be searching for a certain sound, regardless of the guitar.

[Ken Byng]

Richard B - you have stuck a stick right in the middle of a hornets nest and wiggled it about you naughty boy!!

Those of us who own push push pulls know why. They are rather unique and have history. The tone is subjective, and I love the way mine (and other p/p's that I have played) sounds. It plays really smoothly, and that is an area that puts some potential owners off. The myth is that p/p's don't ever play with smooth pedal action. Nonsense. Mine is as smooth as anything that I have ever played.

Richard D - yes, some p/p owners are very vocal about the stance that they take in stating the p/p's are the best. My Show Pro that I have just bought sounds as good as my p/p, but in a DIFFERENT way. My preference is the Emmons single coil pickup, but I want to put a couple of 705's that I have into the Emmons just to compare the difference. I owned a Legrande 2 until recently, but have to say in an A/B comparison there was a noticeable difference in response from the driver's seat. The p/p just sounded more alive to my tired old ears. The LG2 still sounded very good though, especially in the mid-range area.

I love the tone that Tommy White got from the black push pull on his DVD, but then again, Tommy sounds great on any guitar.

I had a long conversation about push pulls with Mike Johnston in Dallas this year. Mike won't get into this debate, but he has some firm views on the subject I can tell you.

This debate will rumble on for many more years to come. I'm happy as it will push up the price of second hand p/p's.

[Ken Byng]

Whoopsah daisy Richard, were you bored at home tonight watching Emerdale farm!

Larry - they ditched the word 'Farm' from that program many years ago. Now just Emmerdale. Not that I ever watched it myself - I would rather stick pins in my eyes.

[Per Berner]

Not that I ever watched it myself - I would rather stick pins in my eyes.

...at least it's not quite as vomit-inducing as Corrie, Hollyoaks or Eastenders. Nearly, but not quite!

Back to the topic: Yes, the push/pulls that I have heard sound better than most other guitars. Sparkle and bite, yet glassy smooth. Full bass, yet very good string separation. No midrange honk, no muffled treble, no muddy bass anywhere to be heard.

Mine (A D10 and an S10) both sound great, at least when somebody else is playing.

The best tone I've ever heard though comes from the Blue Darlin' Fulawka, now owned by Mattias Olofsson. That one's like a p/p on steroids – more of everything.

[Larry Behm]

The original question was "tone or myth". PP's sound like PP's everything else runs a close 2nd. They are not for everyone, some hear it and many do not, many can keep them running and most can not.

Are they the best guitar, I do not think so, most other guitars work better in the big picture. Do they have the most real, open, in your face sound that all other guitar makers are looking for - YES.

Now on to gun control and gay's at the alter!!!

Larry Behm