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Topic: Can we learn from a sax player's perspective on vibrato? |
Andy Volk
From:
Boston, MA
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Posted 19 Mar 2013 7:11 am |
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http://www.thelessonroom.com/LessonRoomResourceLibrary.Page?ActiveID=3033&MediaId=288
Seems to me steelers can learn a lot from wind players vibrato. Forumite Rick Aiello did actually did scientific research on various vibratos. (Look it up in the archives.)
I personally tend to like sax players like say, Paul Desmond, who used minimal vibrato but my exception to this rule is the incredible Sidney Bechet. His vibrato yanks you right out of your chair and says, "Listen to this, Buddy!"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7u9x50GGGs
Lastly, what's a steel player's version of the "hot dog?" Dropping the bar?  |
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Mike Neer
From:
NJ
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Posted 19 Mar 2013 7:17 am
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I don't think so. I think that sax players have pretty much removed vibrato from their playing, or at least minimized it--their are a few exceptions, like Bennie Wallace. I think that we can learn more from vocalists. Today's vocalists are using faster vibrato than in the recent past.
The steel player should think like a vocalist and not automatically use vibrato. Variation and the act of willfully applying it in spots really adds a lot to the expression.
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Jim Cohen
From:
Philadelphia, PA
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Posted 19 Mar 2013 7:45 am
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I've long been sorry to see/hear that sax players have pretty much eliminated vibrato and now play with a very direct, in-your-face tone. I much prefer hearing a player who knows how to "romance a note", if you know what I mean. I agree with Mike that, regarding vibrato, vocalists are better models for us (or at least for me) than sax players.
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Andy Volk
From:
Boston, MA
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Posted 19 Mar 2013 7:58 am
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I think it very much depends on the individual wind player and the individual vocalist seen thru the lens of one's personal taste. I'd rather imitate Ben Webster's vibrato than Joan Baez's any day of the week.
In general, vibrato is almost always more effective when it creeps into the note at the end rather than as a consistent effect throughout a given phrase. |
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frank rogers
From:
usa
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Posted 19 Mar 2013 9:23 am
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Just as vocalists will use "over the top" vibrato to disguise poor intonation, Steel players tend to do likewise. That being said, vibrato can be a beautiful tool if used when needed to express emotion, etc. OTOH, it is sometimes "too big 'a hammer" when over-used.
Example of too much vocal vibrato: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PbvCKFqO2S4 |
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Richard Damron
From:
Gallatin, Tennessee, USA (deceased)
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Posted 19 Mar 2013 1:37 pm
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| If she'd learn breath management, she wouldn't sound like an idling weed-wacker. |
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Doug Beaumier
From:
Northampton, MA
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Darrell Birtcher
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Posted 19 Mar 2013 3:15 pm
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Interesting perspectives. I've really been paying attention to the vibrato of every player I watch. Some common traits I've noticed are:
1) Tense players vs relaxed players. Tense players hold the bar tightly and tend to apply very fast vibrato (like Joan Baez's voice.)
Relaxed players almost always seem to start their vibrato further away from the bar, anywhere from the wrist to the elbow, kind of like a dog wagging the tail. They tend to be more selective in their application and phrasing of vibrato.
2) There seems to be a strain of Hawaiian playing that is dominated by an almost constant, wide, slow vibrato, that most folks find rather nauseating after a while.
With this in mind I try to tell myself to RELAX when playing and apply vibrato selectively to enhance the emotion of a song, and to not overdo it. |
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James Wolf
From:
Georgia
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Posted 19 Mar 2013 3:56 pm
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| While I was studying trombone it was the orchestral string players I would go to to listen for good vibrato. The cello in particular |
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Dan Hatfield
From:
Columbia, Mo USA
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Posted 20 Mar 2013 7:04 am
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In my opinion, it is appropriate for vocalists to have a more pronounced vibrato than the instruments. Here is a cut of IMO one of the greatest voices in history and she has a pretty heavy vibrato. In the same cut you will hear a beautiful sax ride, but the sax vibrato is more subdued than the vocal. If I played this song on steel I would certainly be more subtle on vibrato than is her vocal.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YN2Mp6gu8N0 |
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David Mason
From:
Cambridge, MD, USA
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Posted 21 Mar 2013 6:24 am
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Miles Davis removed it, to generate his own tone, then Coltrane followed. That was during the time when jazz musicians were obsessed with trying to "get their own voice", instead of learning to copy everyone else's. They were trying to distinguish themselves from the previous generation. Lester Young and Johnny Hodge, who he mentions, and Ben Webster, had pretty much wrote the book.
The Indians have the study system to end all systems, they really don't make a distinction between vibrato and what we'd call trills - they're all in the family of meends. And I practice in 2's, 3's, 4's, and what this guy calls 6's. And the dotted-eighth's "swing" time is in there somewhere. Below and above, above and below, below to the note, the note to below... these are just reversing to the beat.
I think it's critical, and one of the most recognizable part of anyone's playing. I listen to violin players more, and the ones I prefer are the less-vibrato'd straight ahead blasters like Salvatore Accardo, Hilary Hahn and Henryk Szeryng. The wheedly, "romantic" vibrato-all-over guys like Itzhak Perlman annoy me. Kala Ramnath is an Indian violinst with a gorgeous tone, and she uses just the tiniest hint of vibrato - but the microtonal meends are "vibrato" in a sense.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VzO7JERS_ng |
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Jerry Hayes
From:
Virginia Beach, Va.
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Posted 21 Mar 2013 7:38 am
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I don't care for the fast vibrato on steel as it makes the music sound too "Old timey" IMO.... It does work for some vocalists such as Joan Baez who someone mentioned. I've always referred to the fast vibrato as the "Canadian Trill" and some of it's best users are Lucille Starr, Lacy J. Dalton, Hank Snow and others.........JH in Va.
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Andy Volk
From:
Boston, MA
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Posted 21 Mar 2013 9:22 am
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Very interesting, David, thanks for the link. I like Kala a lot.
For my taste, here's another intolerable vibrato:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V7PtDycHbiw
Joao Gliberto, on the other hands, projects warmth with almost no vibrato at all:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yUuJrpP0Mak
In the world of steel players, Jimmy Day's vibrato enhances the feeling in his beautiful phrasing. I love much of Byrd's work but when I listen to him add his pronounced vibrato to high register, harmonized passages, my fillings chatter. |
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David Mason
From:
Cambridge, MD, USA
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Posted 21 Mar 2013 4:00 pm
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Ms. Ramnath seems to be a natural at teaching, every time I look there's another new session or forum lecture, and somehow or another I always get something out of them. Of course what she considers basic exercises are ridiculously complicated melodically - I suspect she's one of the ones who've already been playing for several lifetimes before she popped out this time around.  And dear, that tone.... Anybody else playing that dark would be scary/lunar/evil, but she's... not. A lesson there somewhere, I'm sure. |
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Mike Neer
From:
NJ
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Posted 21 Mar 2013 4:40 pm
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I love to hear the difference in everyone's "voice", regardless of the instrument. Vibrato is part of that and there doesn't need to be a standardization as far as I'm concerned.
One of the things I didn't like about Jeff Newman was a crack he made on a video that came with the Carter Starter, saying something along the lines of, "You don't want your vibrato to sound Hawaiian." I shut the tape off and said, "as a matter of fact, I do."
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Links to streaming music, websites, YouTube: Links |
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