Price Of Pedal Steel Amps - What Do You Think?

Gordon Hartin · Post by **Gordon Hartin** » 12 Jan 2013 8:33 am

Pedal steel guitars are expensive. The starting point for a used professional grade pedal steel is usually around $1,500 and new models even higher. When compared to the electric guitar market, you can get a used(not vintage) USA Strat or Tele for $600-700, new $1000 and up depending on features. So, as much as pedal steel players have to pay for their steels, it seems that any time a new amp cost more than $700 they start to grumble. Which I find interesting, because we pay so much for our steels. It is not hard to find a used Peavey(Nashiville 112, 400, Session, 1000) between $300-500. Over the years almost every professional pedal steel player has been seen playing one of these amps.

These days, in the steel world, there are many independent builders(Ken Fox, Brad Sarno, Tim Marcus, John Lemay, Phil Bradbury) making Pre-amps, Power-Amps, Heads and Combo units that work great for pedal steel, but cost way more than a Peavey.

The electric guitar amplifier market entered into the boutique craze over 20 years ago with Matchless, Kendrick, Rivera, and is now filled with dozens of builders whose amps start at $2000. Of course the majority of amps sold are tons of non-boutique.

So, how much do you think a pedal steel amp should cost, and what do you expect for that price?

Gordon Hartin

Jerry Overstreet · Post by **Jerry Overstreet** » 12 Jan 2013 9:36 am

Gordon, I've had thoughts about this for a long time. I think pedal steel guitars are a bargain, if even a new premium model. I'm surprised they're still so affordable.

Steel guitar amplifiers, considering what you get, are also a bargain when compared to higher end guitar amps.

Consider a Boogie or even a Fender Twin etc. at double the price of a Peavey steel amp.

I'm surprised at the price resistance on steel amps. A player will pay $300+ for a volume pedal, $200 for a pickup, better than $200 for a tuner, up to $300 for a seat to sit on so I'd say amps are the best bargain out there.

Any of the recent 200 watt Peavey steel guitar amps with a premium Black Widow speaker, fitted with the tone mods, are worth a new price of at least $800 IMO.

Players are paying a premium price for amps like the Little Walter and glad to get them. Nothing wrong with that. I think even those at the price they command are a good value.

Electronics are the weakest link in your chain. Can make you love to play or just wiggle through it. They can make or break your sound and your enjoyment of same.

Basic high watt professional combo steel guitar amplifiers at $8 to $1200 would be a fair price IMO.

If there were new Webbs etc., possibly more than that.

I think we've been fortunate to get the quality of products we get at the prices we pay when compared to other precision instruments and specialty gear out there.

I don't know that I could always afford new gear at the prices I stated, but I certainly feel those prices are fair.

Tim Marcus · Post by **Tim Marcus** » 12 Jan 2013 10:25 am

when I designed my Milkman amplifier, making it affordable was out of the question for several reasons:

1 - the $500 and under market is already crowded with overseas built solid state designs, and new Fender "built to break" amplifiers.

2 - the $1000-1500 price range is already pretty full. There are lots of small builders using the same type of parts and kits to make classic Fender amps. They can build an amp for $500 and sell it for $1000 with good results. Those amps sound great too - nothing like a hand wired amp when its done right!

3 - the $1500-2000+ range offers little for steel guitar players. There are lots of guitar amps for big bucks, but at the time, no one (Besides Ken maybe) designed a steel amp from the ground up at the boutique level.

so yeah, the Milkman amp is VERY expensive. I know it - everyone knows it - but it has to be that way because not only do I dote on these things to make sure they are perfect in every way, but I also spend more on parts than anyone else making a steel amp. Including LW. Plus I offer a 1 year warranty which means that when anything goes wrong, its on me to get it sorted out.

So for me, the high price comes mostly from cost of materials, partially from my intensive labor time, and then if I am lucky I get to make a little profit so that my company can live another day to make another amp.

Also, I consider amps like the Little Walter, Milkman, Fox, etc to be the "boutique option" Emphasis on the word "option". Its the same choice you make when you go to a car dealership - you do not have to get a Ferrari, but there is a reason you want one.

Steve Lipsey · Post by **Steve Lipsey** » 12 Jan 2013 11:16 am

It does seem like many people have a really hard time separating the two big questions:
1. Is a boutique amp worth the money?
2. Do I want (or can I afford) to spend that much for that part of my signal chain?

If you haven't played one, you simply can't answer the first question....so much about a well-made boutique amp is about the extraordinary connection it makes between player and the music...a very tactile thing. The steel "comes alive"....and that translates into being able to hear, and express nuances of tone that were not possible before.

Re question 2, each to his own...for me, once I started down that road (with Matchless guitar amps, long ago), I was stuck for life...it is an addictive drug to feel those notes spring out of the amp....I sold a bunch of stuff, and scraped together more, to fund my Milkman, and I'm happy I did...

The Ferrari comparison isn't exactly accurate, by the way...it may run like a Ferrari, but it is built like a Sherman Tank....my amp has survived cartwheeling down a loading ramp, end over end, and played perfectly afterwards....(yeah, I'm not the most coordinated guy at 2am leaving a show). I love having complete confidence that this thing not only sounds amazing, but will will be 100% reliable until long after I'm dead and gone...(yeah, I do carry a spare 12AX7, if a power tube dies I can keep going on one pair by pulling the bad pair).

Stephen Cowell · Post by **Stephen Cowell** » 12 Jan 2013 6:41 pm

Boutique... if you can't hear the difference, then don't get one. Your customers can't, for the most part.

If they didn't cost that much, they wouldn't be 'boutique'. At this level, collector items become viable, btw.

One thing boutique amps have that you don't is a good V1 tube... guitar players figured out some time back that good 12AX7s were worth more than their weight in gold. Octal pre tubes are all the rage now... one good reason is that the NOS parts haven't been completely picked through yet, and there's more of them than the nonal (9-pin) ones left. You can spend several hundred dollars on Mullards from Flea-Bay and end up with a microphonic one... but if you can get a decent vendor to guarantee against this, go ahead and spend stupid money on a good pre tube, you'll be amazed at the difference.

Tim Marcus · Post by **Tim Marcus** » 12 Jan 2013 7:26 pm

Stephen Cowell wrote:One thing boutique amps have that you don't is a good V1 tube...

It's more than that - transformer quality, resistor quality, wire quality and lead dress, capacitor choices - they all factor in. It's not just tubes. Also, the circuit really helps - trimming the features out and keeping it simple makes a nice difference as well.

Tubes can really stand out when the other components they are married to are as high quality as possible.

One more point - it's not about hearing the difference. It's more about *feeling* the difference. No denying that. The way a good amp responds to your hands should not denied. What Franklin likes about his LW might have more to do with the cathode biased output than the octal preamp tube in V1

Frank Montmarquet · Post by **Frank Montmarquet** » 12 Jan 2013 9:18 pm

The major drivers for cost in electronics, doesn't matter what, amp, computer, radio, is the lot size that components are purchased in, and the lot size for the builds. Nothing else matters.

Take any boutique amp and have someone make 5,000 at a time and it will cost maybe one tenth of what it does now.

Doesn't matter if it is hand wired or not. Low volume means high price. Upgrading the components in any mass produced amp. would have a minor impact on price. The big manufactures don't because they don't have to.

Marc Jenkins · Post by **Marc Jenkins** » 13 Jan 2013 12:18 am

I find it very ridiculous when the price of an amplifier is greeted with outrage on the forum.

mike nolan · Post by **mike nolan** » 13 Jan 2013 12:50 am

OT

I don't mind paying 2 to 3 K for an amp. I expect it to be reliable, rugged, and to sound great. I do want to be able to have it serviced without shipping or long wait times. For steel, I would like it to have onboard reverb. Since I sometimes double on guitar, I would like the option for a 2 channel guitar/steel version. Head plus cabinet is probably best for versatility.

One problem with small shop builders is that I can't find one of their amps to try before buying. I have a number of amps that I really like, but still am interested in Milkman, and LW..... but I'm not jumping unless I try one first. I have piles of ex flavor of the month gear, sitting unused, that I thought I would like, but didn't. All good stuff that others were happy with, but that's the nature of the tone quest thing.

Another issue, is that I can always ask for backline to include something like a Twin Reverb, anywhere in the world, and be able to get a sound that I'm happy with.... It doesn't much matter if it is vintage, modern, BF, or SF.
I don't want to ship my one of a kind boutique amp all over creation.... I can't usually afford to anyway. I have played on some stages, particularly in Great Britain, with really bad power that just ate american amps.

So what I think I really want is a Milkman, LW, Fox, etc. mass produced by Peavey that will be cheap and ubiquitous.

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 13 Jan 2013 6:58 am

I see it like a car, spend what you want to. You can buy an amp for $500 or $5,000. You can buy a car for $15,000 or for $500,000. What governs the amount you spend ia what you want, and what you can afford. I do feel that your playing should be at a very advanced level to justify or see any real benefit from a boutique amp.

If a driver can't handle a Mustang or Corvette, there's certainly no use in giving him a Ferrari...unless it's just to satisfy his ego. (Which, I suspect, is the case for many boutique amp buyers.)

Lane Gray · Post by **Lane Gray** » 13 Jan 2013 9:20 am

Unless you have the experience and practice time to get good tone out of your hands, crazy money on amps is silly.
One friend has probably spent an amount half my annual income on electronics and still picks timidly, with the resultant weak tone. Not even Little Walter, Tim Marcus and Dumble can fix that.
If you can hear a difference when you change your pick attack, then you might find them worth your while. And I think a hand-built amp costing half the price of a hand-built pedal steel (when Tim probably spends more on components than Bruce Zumsteg or Jerry F.) and probably spends almost as much time) sounds pretty damn reasonable.
The only thing keeping the prices down is that there's so many acceptable cheaper alternatives, especially second hand.

Kevin Lichtsinn · Post by **Kevin Lichtsinn** » 13 Jan 2013 10:03 am

I agree with Donny and Lane. If I had an expensive amp, my playing would not sound a bit better. I am still a rookie! My used Session 400 sounds great(to me). If I was a fantastic player, which I am not, and was playing high paying gigs, it may be a different story....

Gordon Hartin · Post by **Gordon Hartin** » 13 Jan 2013 10:36 am

Over the past 11 years for guitar and steel I have owned

Peavey Nashville 400
Peavey Session 400 Wedge
Peavey Nashville 112
Fender Twin Reverb Reissue
Fender Blues JR
Crate VC50
Orange Rockerverb 100
Ken Fox Bassman
Ken Fox Twin
Little Walter 50 Watt

I have sold everything except for my 2 Ken Fox amps and my Little Walter 50 watt. I havn't had any problems with these amps, but I did have problems with all of the others above, except the Orange.

The thing I appreciate most about the boutique amps is how consistent they are. They very intuitive and sound really good in almost any dial setting.

I'm not saying that you can't get good sounds out of the Peaveys or other amps listed above, but it is really easy to set them so they don't sound good. Give a Session 400 or Nashville 400 to a guitar player that has never used one before and ask them to get a really good sound in 1 minute.

I agree with Lane that you can not compensate for poor technique with expensive equipment. Guitar players have proven over and over again that buying a Strat and a Marshall doesn't turn you into Jimi Hendrix.

I don't agree with Donny "I do feel that your playing should be at a very advanced level to justify or see any real benefit from a boutique amp." Because having an amp that is intuitive and easy to get good sounds out of at most settings really helps players at any level.

I'm glad Tim Marcus gave his input from the builder perspective.

Steve Lipsey · Post by **Steve Lipsey** » 13 Jan 2013 11:59 am

I used to believe that good equipment didn't make a bad player play/sound better, BUT good equipment CAN make a player GET better, quickly....I'm still a relative newbie, but getting the Milkman made me WANT to practice more, made me HEAR more of what what was going on with my pick attack, etc., and that "choir of angels" tone does, in fact, sound better, pretty much whatever you play on it...with a Peavey, I'd bet that you don't ever just pick one note and sit there in wonder while listening to it ring out....

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that it is some entirely new thing...it is still "just" an amp....but there really are quite noticeable differences in what you hear, and what you feel, as you play. Maybe 50 years playing guitar has trained my hearing and touch to be more sensitive to this stuff than the average newbie, but it is there, for sure.

Tim Marcus · Post by **Tim Marcus** » 13 Jan 2013 12:06 pm

mike nolan wrote:
One problem with small shop builders is that I can't find one of their amps to try before buying.

I have sold enough of them now that there is a small network all over the country. If you email me, I can try to set you up with another Milkman owner. Thats another nice thing about small amp companies - everyone I have sold an amp to has been enthusiastic and great. I feel like I have made friends with my clients, and they would likely invite you to try out their Milkman. I have a few in NY.

Last night was the 12th annual Sleepless Nights tribute to Graham Parsons here in San Francisco. I put 2 amps on the backline for the players to use - a steel amp and my 20W guitar amp. Both were cranked up all night and did great. There were compliments from the players, the audience - and most importantly to me the sound crew. There has to be *something* about these amps that is different. I get complimented by sound engineers and recording engineers all the time with my Milkman amps - even in their various stages of prototype.

I agree about the playing being at a certain level to really take advantage of the amp. However, who cares? Some people just like owning a nice thing. A boutique amp is a nice thing - its a functional work of art.

mike nolan · Post by **mike nolan** » 13 Jan 2013 12:45 pm

Tim,
PM'd you.

Mike Schwartzman · Post by **Mike Schwartzman** » 13 Jan 2013 3:51 pm

I think most of us are capable of upgrading the amps that we DO have. With higher quality tubes (if it happens to be a tube amp), or changing a speaker to a higher quality one. As Steven Cowell pointed out, a high quality preamp tube(s) makes an audible difference if you can get some good NOS...of course, you'll dig deep dollar-wise to have them. Speaker upgrade can also make an immediate audible difference. BUT, when it comes to building amps from the ground up, Tim said:

It's more than that - transformer quality, resistor quality, wire quality and lead dress, capacitor choices - they all factor in.

There is an amazing difference in the price of one small component. Generic capacitors bought in quantity buy a large manufacter cost next to nothing compared to what Tim is using in the Milkman. We are talking a HUGE price difference for one single component. Just like the price difference between a NOS Telefunken preamp tube vs. a currently
manufactured Eastern European or Asian tube. What would that be? 15 to 20 times as much?

Tim Marcus · Post by **Tim Marcus** » 13 Jan 2013 4:50 pm

well, to complicate things further the capacitors that I use exclusively in my amplifiers are one of three types:

1 - Jupiter Condensers. These are hand made in the USA. There is no chance of getting them in large quantities. I already get the max price break on them and my cost is quite high. If I ordered 10,000 of them Chris would call me and ask if I was out of my F$%king mind

2 - NOS Mica "domino" caps. These are still fairly cheap, but I have to chase them down from the ends of the earth. Nothing sounds as good. I am making arrangements with Jupiter to make them in the values I need because they are getting harder and harder to find.

3 - in my tremolo circuit, I can use ceramic caps because they are not in the signal path. These are only used to create oscillations and are not in any audio path in my amps.

4 - electrolytic caps for the power supply and cathode bypass on audio stages. These would certainly get less expensive in large quantitates, but again, not much.

It goes on and on - the cabinets would get only slightly less expensive in quantities because they are all hand made in the USA.

Transformers are hand wound in the USA.

My point is, if one were to make 10,000 of my amps it would still cost a lot of money and take quite some time.

Besides, who wants that? The thing that is great about hand made amps is that they each possess their own character. With this many hand made parts its impossible for each amp to sound exactly the same - and I like it that way. When you order a boutique amp, and spend the big bucks, you get something that is uniquely yours. Ken Fischer used to name his amps. I just hand number mine.

Bud Angelotti · Post by **Bud Angelotti** » 13 Jan 2013 5:38 pm

The price is what is is. If you want to buy pro grade golf clubs, even used, expect to pay more. You need a bunch of stuff to get started with the steel. Not just the guitar. It is an investment of sorts, even with "cheap" gear.

Len Amaral · Post by **Len Amaral** » 13 Jan 2013 6:32 pm

I have very expensive golf clubs and only hit the golf balls farther in to the woods

Seriously, I have botiques amp & racks but also have a Nash 400 that still gets used. The pilot light is out after 20 years of use. Go figure?

Lenny

Ray Anderson · Post by **Ray Anderson** » 13 Jan 2013 7:23 pm

Would the Sho-Bud amps be considered as boutique? Were they mass produced or made to order? Any history on these would be appreciated.

Brett Lanier · Post by **Brett Lanier** » 13 Jan 2013 7:23 pm

I can't help but wonder how much these boutique amps would cost if the builders actually charged for all the r&d and skilled labor that goes into making them.

Also, didn't a Session 400 cost $500 or more when they first came out? That would amount to over 2 grand in today's money. I like my Session 400 alright but it isn't in the same league as my handwired amps.

I think we're lucky to have a few guys currently building boutique steel amps. It's not exactly a profitable business; and still, they're doing their best to keep the cost down. Hats off to them.

Tim Marcus · Post by **Tim Marcus** » 13 Jan 2013 7:51 pm

True - I spent a year developing my steel amp to make it perfect. Didn't make a dime off that and dipped into my savings to make it happen because it needed to happen

Steven Finley · Post by **Steven Finley** » 14 Jan 2013 8:56 am

I think the high price of tube amps since it is
fifties technolegy is a total outrage,lets get with it,this is 2013,why you would buy a new amp that
only gives you a vintage sound in a modern age is
beyound me.
Music has changed over the years,so has the equipment used to make it.

Gordon Hartin · Post by **Gordon Hartin** » 14 Jan 2013 9:52 am

I think the high price of tube amps since it is
fifties technolegy is a total outrage,lets get with it,this is 2013,why you would buy a new amp that
only gives you a vintage sound in a modern age is
beyound me.
Music has changed over the years,so has the equipment used to make it.

It's not only tube amps that are considered boutique, the Webb amps are solid state and they were over $2000. And also, just because new technology comes out, doesn't mean it's any better than the old.