The Steel Guitar Forum

I'm trying to figure out how to make my right knee do what the left knee currently does on my GFI Ultra (lower and raise the E's). Could anybody give me some answers? Is it necessary to detach the actual lever bracket from the body and swap places? Is it just a matter of changing the rods from the lever bell cranks to the appropriate cross shaft bell cranks? Or does it require changing the rods from the changer fingers to the correct cross shaft bell cranks that correspond to the levers you want to use? Also, Is there a general reason to use certain holes/slots on the bell cranks, or do you just try to use whatever holes keep the rods from rubbing each other?

Georg just laid down a very good list and procedure guide.
He didn't answer a couple questions of yours, so that gives me room to pipe up and answer your last question.
The PRIMARY reason for choosing certain holes on both bellcranks and changers is for timing pulls: different size strings react slower or faster to finger travel, but if 4 and 8 both move a half step, you will ideally want them moving together, so one will require more leverage than the other, such as (I use these numbers only as illustration, and if I have the numbers right, it's an accident) say the fourth string finger needs to rotate 5° to move from E to D#, while the thinner-cored 8th string (for changer purposes, the total diameter doesn't matter, it's the core. A 0.030 string will probably have a 0.10 core and a wrap the same) will need to rotate 9°, and most folks want them to start and stop together.
Avoiding interference between pulls is of secondary importance, but does come into play

That was fast! Thanks for the input, guys.

So if I have this right then, the rods that lead from the leavers to the cross shafts don't get touched when performing this copedent change, correct? It's a matter of swapping out different lengths of pull rods to connect the far/near cross shafts (for the specific levers) to the changer fingers. And on top of that, if the rod that raises my E's to F (for example) currently is connected to the top hole of the cross shaft bell crank and the other end connects to the bottom hole on the finger (and both of these holes are just arbitrary for the purpose of example) then when I swap out that length pull rod for a different length and connect it to a different cross shaft, the rod should be place in the same position holes on both the bell crank and the changer, correct?

Sounds like you are fairly new to the pedal steel guitar. Can I ask why you want to change the copedent around? If you have already been playing a guitar that is set up the way you want to change the GFI to, then I can see it. If you are just starting out, I don't see a lot of point in changing it around, just learn the way it is set up now.

Essentially correct.
The Cliff's Notes version of what you'll do (remember to take lots of pictures to give you references)
1: make a rodding chart, detailing which holes in the bellcranks and which holes in the changer.
This is easiest by assigning letters to the bellcrank's holes (A nearest the cross-shafts, H or however high your count is at the tip), and numbering the changer holes, 1 closest to the the strings and 6 closest to the bottom of the endplate. A sample might be as simple as "LKL: 4B3; 8C2" where 4 is the string, the rod pulls from the second hole in the bellcrank to the third hole in the changer, and on the 8th string it pulls from the 3rd hole in the bellcrank to the second hole in the changer.
2: remove the rods for the first two levers you want to swap, taking care not to lose parts (do NOT do this operation in a room with 3" shag carpet unless you want to buy barrels and bellcranks and spacers. Ask Michael Yahl how much he's made off my living room carpet)
3: reposition the bellcranks to be in line with their new slots in the changer
4: install the rods in their new locations on their new strings

EDIT: Mr Sinkler speaks wise words.
If this is your first guitar, I suggest learning it as it sits.
If this is a REPLACEMENT guitar, like your second guitar and you sold your first, I'd say the same.
If it's a 2nd axe, and you want it to match the first, then I can see an advantage (but I see a distinct advantage to keeping two guitars different; you'd FORCE mental agility on yourself, which steepens the learning curve but probably makes you better)
But if you're wanting to do it because you just want to tinker with it and learn how it works, GO FOR IT. I rejiggered my pull-release Marlen without the internet OR making a rodding chart

Lane, thanks for the help....is there any pointers you can give me when I go to swap out my RKR pedal which either raises/lowers (can't remember which) one string a half step then starts to engage a second string for a half step and continues on the first string for another half step (am I a good communicator or what?).

Richard, to answer your question, I'm fairly new...been playing a couple years. Basically, I'm a copy cat. I've been looking at some YouTube videos of Lloyd green playing fairwell party, Greg leisz playing a John mayor song in the studio and Eric Heywood playing in 96 on Austin City Limits and it appears that all of these guys (which I idolize) mess with their E's with the right knee. And it makes sence when you play scales that involve mashing the A pedal and using the LKR lever (lower the E's..... this is hard for me...short legs). It seems like it would be easier doing this with the right knee.

Speaking of that...anybody have opinions on if I should switch LKL with RKL or RKR (and the same for the other)??? It seems like I should make RKR do what LKL does (both actions involve swinging the knee to the outside of the guitar...or does that sound silly?

the RKR you speak of probably lowers 2 to D, where it picks up the 9th string D and they continue together to C#.
The only suggestion is to get the rodding right; in the same holes on the new bellcranks and changers as the old. Changing which holes you use will foul up the timing

After looking a little closer and doing some research it looks like I was wrong about Lloyd Green...looks like he raises the E's with the LKR (the very thing I find hard to do while mashing the A pedal). Perhaps I just need practice....or shorter legs on my steel.

Sorry, didn't want to start a false rumor.

Remember, Lloyd only chose that placement from inertia. He already HAD three knees, and didn't have an LKR, and just didn't feel like rearranging everything.
Nobody starting from scratch puts that change there unless they have Day pedals

I'm actually not interested in changing the GFI to Mr Green's exact set up...I was just thought I saw a trend with some top notch players using the right knee to mess with the E's. Turns out I was wrong anyway about Lloyd's setup.

BUT...I'm still thinking pretty hard about switching LKR and RKL around because of two reasons: I find it hard to access the "A" pedal (far left) and the LKR lever; the second reason is I don't use my right knee at all right now....so why not use it to lower my E's? Only thing I can think of that might get in the way of my thinking is I'm use to useing the volume pedal without levering with my right leg; maybe it might be hard for me to do both....don't know.

Perhaps instead I should try messing with the stops on the levers to better fit me ergonomicly. Maybe I should drop some cash for a new set of shorter legs....

Lots of Emmons set-up players have E lowers on RKL, [Had it there for a long time myself] and E raises on LKL. Pretty standard arrangement for many players.

Georg, I like that idea about moving the pedals right...the only thing I wonder is how it will effect my LKL E raisers. I suppose it is much more difficult to adjust the placement of the knee levers? And you're Absolutely right, I need to find some use for those right knee levers....I've been learning mostly by ear and a handful of YouTube clips, but haven't found a use for them just yet. I even have a LKV pedal which there is no way in hell I can use without lifting my foot completely off the ground so that I can't even think about touching the pedals at the same time. I believe the LKV is the "Franklin".

Jerry, thanks. I knew it sounded like a decent idea!

The floor pedals were too far to the left on my Wife's GFI Expo S-10, too. Moving the pedal rod mounting stud to the opposite side of the pedals and then moving the pedal rack over, greatly improved pedaling and the two LKL and LKR knee lever access.

I would suggest you try this first.

There are good arguments for the knee lever that lowers the E's as you have it or the standard "Emmons" setup, and for moving the E lowers to the RKL (the Sho-Bud) setup. I've used it both ways, originally on the RKL on my first Pedal Steel and then on the LKR on a PP Emmons and now on my Franklin.

The E raises on the LKL is the most often used location, regardless of where the E lower knee lever is.

Lloyd Green does not lower the 4th string E.

I'm sure that moving my pedals right would help the LKR pedal as, currently, I can use it quite well if I engage the B pedal...but the LKL lever is then a bit out of reach. I feel that if it is a reasonable idea, one of the left knee levers needs to move. How do y'all feel about me removing the push/pull rod from the lever to the cross shaft, unscrewing the lever from the body and replacing it an inch over? I don't much like the idea of leaving drilled holes where my lever use to be, but I'm just thinking...anybody done that before?

Georg, so you're saying you actually detached the levers from the body of the guitar and drilled new holes at the new lever locations? Or was this a more minor adjustment?

After reading all this, it seems to change what the RKL does currently, to make the LKR do,(lower E's I think) will take someone who knows how to change it and not for the faint of heart or a new player, like me.

I'm looking at a GFI ultra that has just this issue. Now I don't know how to play at ALL, but when I went to look at this guitar, I got the 1 chord open, then with the A&B pedals I got the 4 chord. When I went to play the B pedal and the LKR to get the 5 chord, I got something other than the 5 chord. I held down the B pedal and engaged the RKL and got the 5 chord. I guess this is a setup that some like, but I prefer to have the E's on the LKR.


How expensive would it be to get this changed to the way I want it. Is the way I want it the "standard" or is it standard the way it's set up now? I don't have a clue as to how the other levers are set up.

Sorry to sound so ignorant, but I guess I am. lol!

Also, the way the LKR sounds, it does what a 5th knee lever does, whatever that is. I know when I "played" another guitar that had the 5th knee lever on the left, that is what it sounded like. Probably clear as mud.

Maybe one day I will know what I'm talking about. LOL!!!

OK. I have been reading and re-reading this thread. The purchase of this guitar relies totally on the cost of getting the knee levers straightened out like I want them.

From what my thick skull is reading, you take a bell crank and re-align it with the knee lever you want to control that particular bell crank and connect possibly a different length shaft to it.

Doesn't sound too complicated, but I guess the keeping up with all the little parts and putting everything back together correctly in the same holes would be the part you really have to be careful of.

Take lots of before pictures, and I'd make a rodding chart of what's on there.
Exactly how you arrange the rodding chart is up to you, as there are several ways of doing it. I personally like numbering the bellcrank holes and lettering the changer holes, starting from the deck of the guitar and going up, giving you things like (pardon it not being in chart form, you could make it like a copedent chart)
Pedal A: 5-2C, 10-2B (if those are the assignments, my guitar is in the car for going to a jam session).
You can do it yourself, it's not hard, but just make lots of reference charts and pictures.

Thanks Lane!!

I may try to tackle it myself. If I get hung up or just totally get it out of whack, I can always ship it to the factory. hehe.

Thanks for your info!! I will do as you suggested.