new steel models...time will tell

chris ivey · From: california (deceased)

i find it cringe worthy going through the for sale section and others that some newer brands or models are touted as being far superior, or the one others are judged by or pro model even though it appears to be a student/econo model.

some of this just takes time and experience to be true. hopefully inexperienced buyers will be aware of this type of hype. kind of like a presidential candidate, no one really knows how something will perform until it's been on stage for 4 or 8 years.

i personally have been drawn to the infinity steel as a new good choice, though i've never seen or heard one. weldon bought a new justice but i've never seen or heard one in person. rustler (or however it's spelled) has the name of an older heavier guitar but the ad says they're great. everyone swears by a G2 mullen but i've necver seen one in person.

you can fly cheaper with a stage one-two-three or an ets, but do they inspire you like an old tried and true emmons?

it took zumsteel a good 5 years to start getting
a good reputation established.

anyway, my point is...?? oh yeah...before you start advertising new wares as the best thing ever, give them time to earn the reputation...and new players and buyers...don't necessarily fall for what someone posts on the for sale section.

it's best to try something out for yourself and make your own assessment to be sure it
s what you want.

Jason Putnam · From: Tennessee, USA

I think pedal steels are kinda like automobiles. Ford,Chevy,Dodge, etc. They are all well constructed vehicles. I know because I have owned one of each. People form all these opinions that are really only based on personal preference and what they have heard other people say. Emmons is a great guitar. But so is Zumsteel. And so is Rains. And so is Mullen. The only real differences are the names and personal preference. I am a beginner steel player and I know there is a difference in a economy/student model and a Professional model. Surely most others have the common sense to know that also. I think we should just choose what we purchase based on what we need or want to do with the steel and be happy we are able to learn this great instrument!!

Alex Cattaneo · From: Quebec, Canada

I am in no way connected to ETS or any person selling ETS guitars; I don't own one and heck, never played one

BUT I think the ETS pedal steel was designed (and built?) by Bud Carter, who, correct me if I'm wrong, has done plenty to earn a good reputation in the pedal steel community.

When I walked into Al Brisco's shop and saw that powder blue ETS steel, I thought it was a toy. Thing was so small! And that color? But you know what, that was Al's personal guitar, the one he plays at concerts and on records. You can actually watch him demonstrate it on Youtube. Now, why would Al play this guitar when he has worked and played on almost every type and brand of guitar out there?

Anyhow, it was too low for me to play, but when Al sat down and played on it, it was absolutely gorgeous and sounded every bit as pro as any other guitar I heard. Anyway, I think pro is an adjective best used to describe a player rather than an instrument.

Of course, when someone is selling something, it's unlikely that he will advertise it as unreliable, awful sounding and persistently out of tune. That's why we look for personal experiences shared by our fellow steel players in the other sections of the Forum... wish I had known about pot metal before I bought my Sho-Bud, which, incidentally, is probably one those "tried and true" brand that everyone is so fond of...

chris ivey · From: california (deceased)

i'm not putting down any of the brands i mentioned. they appear to be very good. my rub is with how quickly some people adopt legendary accolades to anything that is not yet time proven.

i dunno..maybe it's a dumb thread, but it was making me think that it may take time to see how newer things stack up against older established things.

i guess the line that got me most was, 'the one all others are judged by'.....
with all due respect (lots of it) to weldon and fred, this may turn out to be true 'in time'. ..but there are a few other previously established models that are actually the standard setters. this of course will change as time goes by.
i'd love to hear some good country albums with weldon playing his.
i'm curious to see some infinity steels being used also and would like to hear feedback from those actually using them regularly. i planned to go see frank carter in downieville but he moved before i got a chance.

Quentin Hickey · From: Nova Scotia, Canada

Alex I second you on Al playing his ETS. That man can really make it "sing". I see Chris's point about the longevity of steels. I think the reputation of the builder is a big factor. We all know the builders who are not going anywhere in this business.

Daniel McKee · From: Corinth Mississippi

I think a lot of the new steels being made are good guitars one reason being they are great mechanically.In my opinion we are still advancing in steel guitar and the guitars are still getting better.I will say that I am a huge fan of the old shobud guitars but I am also very impressed with many of the great new guitars out there.

Lyle Bradford · From: Gilbert WV USA (deceased)

I don't think it matters what X brand the A team players are using to record with it is the ability to play that gets them where they are. I think either of them can take any brand and still sound as good as they do now. Its how the steel makes you feel more than the brand. I had one that was a color that I hated because I could not get used to it. It was a top brand and has been tried and proven. I see so many similarites in all the guitars today. Just small things different. Is it possible the bodys and parts come from a lot of the same places?

Billy Carr · From: Seminary, Mississippi, USA (deceased)

Well, since this is a discussion on guitars, I'll add my two cents of info., which is my opinion only. I like different things about different brands. Ok, bellcranks? I've used several different ones over the years and even though I play a Williams(at the moment), yes I like the Williams bellcranks but my favorite and preferred bellcrank is the GFI/PedalMaster style bc's. Cross shafts? I prefer square cs's. Why? Simply put, it's easier for me to secure a bellcrank on a square cs rather than worry with trying to get one to not move on a round cs. Changers? My favorite changer is the Williams changer. Strings don't break(or hadn't) and I really like the way the changer is mounted to the cabinet. I believe that to be a factor in how a guitar sustains and the tone it gives. Mica/Lacquer cabinets? Currently, I've got a lacquer body but to get the exact tone I really listen for, I've pretty much got to play a mica covered guitar. 37 out of 41 years, I've had mica guitars, so that's the reason pretty much. Necks? wood/aluminum? I like the aluminum necks. Favorite guitars over the years? Ok, I'll close with this part. S-10D Rains,red mica with Carpenters upgrades, S-10D GFI, black mica, LDG Sho-Bud, green lacquer(this one was a small LDG, not the big bunky one), D-10 Carter, black mica, my very first Carter, followed by six new ones. S-10D Magnum, black mica. One more, U-12 Carter, black mica, my first universal. Current guitar, S-10D Williams, burgundy lacquer,4 + 4, I'm enjoying. Thanks.

Steve Pawlak · From: Arizona, USA

Weldon, Del, Buddy, Paul, Shot, Fred, Lloyd......etc

But who's chris ivey? Wink

Jim Hollingsworth · From: Way out West

I understand that Chris reveres the vinatge classics. So do I - just like I love old Strats & Teles, etc. But you get a new Strat or Les Paul that has all the vibe & looks of an old one, because they are now "building them like they used too". I would love to own an old Emmone p/p but haven't as yet. But Emmons & Franklin are reducing their production. Eventually they will cease to be made unless someone else steps in & takes over their firms. Hence new builders are stepping in & filling the gap. And some of the new guitars are as good or better than the old ones. Compare Show Pro to Sho Bud. Or Zum & Rittenberry to Emmons. Today's builders are making great guitars & will hopefully do so for years to come. I would love to some day own an old push/pull and maybe a ZB too. But I really appreciate & get lots of performance out of my new guitars (Rittenberry & Mullen).

They each have their places & merits.

Jim

Danny Bates · From: Fresno, CA. USA

Peter Nylund · From: Finland

Jack Stoner · From: Kansas City, MO

Excluding the limited production "boutique" guitars (e.g. the Weenik's) Chis has a point. Until there is a track record over "x" years no one can say how well a new brand of guitar will hold up or do.

I also agree it doesn't matter what brand the "name" pickers are playing. When I bought my Franklin, I was asked by many if I bought it just because of Paul Franklin (Jr). I didn't even know there was a Paul Franklin (Jr) when I bought my Franklin, it was for other reasons.

Steve Pawlak · From: Arizona, USA

My point was that these steel builders put a great deal of thought, effort, capital and pride in thier products and really make a mark in the flow of things. The pedal steel is a marvelous machine and cannot be produced like another knock off Strat or LP and I applaud anyone who would undertake the production of one.
Getting a good word from a professional player or one of the many excellent musicians on this forum is a good opportunity for a new builder to flourish and quite frankly as the old saying goes "Don't knock it till you try it"

Joseph Meditz · From: Sierra Vista, AZ

Christopher Woitach · From: Portland, Oregon, USA

I notice MSA guitars are rarely mentioned in these threads. I have never played a Millenium, but the Studio Pro U-12 I own is a remarkable piece of machinery. I particularly like the flywheels that adjust pedal height while sitting at the guitar, as far as simple but effective innovations go.
_________________
Christopher Woitach
cw@affmusic.com
www.affmusic.com

Roger Rettig · From: Naples, FL

There's always a degree of hyperbole surrounding a new guitar and one can understand a new manufacturer wanting to maximise the impact of his new product.

The harsh truth is that, as others have said, there's a general level of consistency in the steels being built today and most will perform very well. I will never be swayed by the fact that a particular 'star player' talks in glowing terms about a guitar - without exception all the players we admire can do their job on any well-set up guitar and we can't know how much of an incentive was involved in getting them to play it.

My guess is that it's only the volume producers (fewer and fewer these days) who could contemplate giving a steel away given the costs involved; still, a 'break' in the price might be enough to lure an influential musician into the fold.

I have Emmons guitars. They're as good as anything out there but, more importantly for me, I know they'll be easier to sell should I need to do so - there are many guitars that would serve my purpose just as well in the playability department but in general the Desert Roses, Fessingdons, GFIs, and many others will hang around in ''Instruments For Sale'. Not fair, maybe, but there's a perception that Emmons, Zums and - in the upper echelons - Franklins will always be desirable.
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Roger Rettig: Emmons D10, B-bender Teles, Martins, and a Gibson Super 400!
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Mike Mantey · From: Eastern Colorado, USA

Paddy Long · From: Christchurch, New Zealand

In an interesting observation on my many visits to the Dallas steel show ... there always seemed to be the latest "flavour of the month" guitar, and a particular group of players would all be playing it.
One year this particular group were all playing MSA's, and low and behold, the next year the same bunch of guys were all playing G2 Mullens ... so I look forward to see which flavour of caramel will be in prominence in 2013 .. There are a few discerning blokes who continue to be satisfied with their Zums of course Laughing

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14'Zumsteel Hybrid D10 9+9
08'Zumsteel Hybrid D10 9+9
94' Franklin Stereo D10 9+8
Telonics, Peterson, Steelers Choice, Benado, Lexicon, Red Dirt Cases.

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

My take, and I don't think I saw the post that flipped Chris's switch, is apparently (and I'm gleaning this from context, I don't think he said it in so many words) a post claiming that an Infinity from Frank Carter is "the benchmark by which all others will be judged."
To which 2 responses spring to mind:
1) Is that Frank's words, or those of an enthusiastic seller? and;
2) Huh? AFAIK that's a newish brand and I've never seen, played or even (knowingly, any way) heard one.
I'd say it's a little early to call them benchmarks.
I'd say current benchmarks are probably Emmons, Zum and (maybe) Mullen (I didn't realize there were that many out there, Mike).
Personally, had I seen anyone attributing benchmark status to a newer entry on the field, I think I'd just scratch my head and move on to the next post.
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2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects

Roger Rettig · From: Naples, FL

I thought it was in reference to the Justice D-10 which has a logo on it proclaiming it to be 'The Judge'. The maker then quantified the name saying 'the standard by which others are judged', or words to that effect. Not the Infinity.
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Roger Rettig: Emmons D10, B-bender Teles, Martins, and a Gibson Super 400!
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Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

Ahh.
While Fred does indeed make a fine guitar, I'd say it's a little early for him to claim benchmark status.
But I'd just indulge him and call it maker's hyperbole and harmless.

EDIT: Fred did not claim his guitars were the benchmark, one of his satisfied customers did.
I like Fred, he's a great guy, good player and good builder.
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2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects

Fred Justice · From: Mesa, Arizona

I wasn't going to post on this thread at all but lane, you pushed the letter and my hand my friend.

Although I am very proud of the guitars I build, I have not stated or mentioned any where, any time, or on any thread, that myself of my guitars are a "benchmark" to build by.
I have achieved a reasonable amount of success having built some 73 guitars in a little over three years. And I owe that to my good customers, good craftsmanship, and God for his many blessing.

As I stated above, I'm a proud man, proud of our product, but I'm not all about making money or lots of it.
My goal and labor is to help people, build quality products, and be honest with everyone I deal with.
I don't indulge in the silly little games that some folks like to start here on this forum.
I have only one to answer to and that's Jesus Christ my Lord and Savior.
So don't put words in my month, I'm not playing your games. I'm just a man trying to make a living like many of you are.
_________________
Email: azpedalman@gmail.com
Phone: 480-235-8797

Roger Rettig · From: Naples, FL

That's true - I'm not the original poster here but I did add fuel to the fire by perpetuating what I'd read somewhere. It was Johnny Howington who wrote:

Posted 29 Sep 2012 4:47 pm Great Deal

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If your looking for a professional grade steel guitar there are none better than the Justice. Especially the Judge. The reason Fred named it the Judge is because it's the one all the others are Judged by!! One of the best I have ever played. If you have never tried one you should. This is a great investment if you want a great steel guitar. No better than Fred to work with also. Smiley I'm so sorry you have to sell it. It's a beauty!! I wish you the best!! I have enjoyed mine for about the past 5 months!
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I apologise, Fred, for misrepresenting things. You didn't say it but it sounds as if was one of your satisfied customers.
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Roger Rettig: Emmons D10, B-bender Teles, Martins, and a Gibson Super 400!
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Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

Thank you, Fred. And my apologies.
And thanks for setting the record straight.
And I wouldn't blame anyone for raving about their new guitars.
(now to go edit this afternoon's post to clarify)
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2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects

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