The Steel Guitar Forum

Just wondering how many of you guys/gals out there have returned to just the basics for a set up on your particular steel. I've played D-10's, S-10D's, S-10's, S14's & U-12's over the years. What has always inspired me is the steel players from years ago, like Lloyd Green, that only used 3 & 4 or even early Buddy Charleston with ET using 8 & 2 & 8 & 4. Early Emmons like the Ray Price intros and such and yes, even Hughey in the early Conway country days about 1968. These guys were playing some killer steel guitar back then with less. I enjoy playing with a basic set up, 3 & 4. Lots of fun!

Good point Billy .
I started on a S10 with 3&2 .
Progressed to 3&3 . Used to play as many notes/bar every bar as I could .
Now back where I started 3&2 but only playing the bare minimum .
I find the less I play the better I sound

Billy,

Good thread......To me, there is a very good reason to load up the guitar. Lets forget about playing all types of music which is my reason....Lets just take the desire to only play the steel guitar sounds of the 60's.

If I desire to only play the exact steel parts from that 60's era, I'll need more pedals than just 3 and 4 on the E9th tuning. Because Drake's set up was different than Lloyd's which was different from Buddy's which was different from Day's and on and on there is no way of getting around not having more pedals for those sounds....The steel guitarists of that era were always searching for the next change to put on recordings so their copedants constantly changed and so did the types of bends they recorded on hits throughout the 60's.

For the below example I'll examine just the most prominent players of the 60's and see what unique changes they were using on sessions.

Just to get all of the Lloyd stuff I'll start by loading the guitar with his exact 3 pedal and 4 lever set up....He doesn't lower the top E to Eb.....Yet Weldon, Rugg, and Buddy utilized that three string change on many hits during the 60's. So my opinion on that change is the slant can come close with two strings but when it comes to exactly capturing all of Weldon's and Buddy's three string fills the slant misses the bullseye. So I will add a lever that lowers the top E to Eb. This change has to be on a separate lever because I don't want to lose Lloyds lever which only lowers the low E to Eb. Those 4, 5 and 8 wide spread major seventh harmonies he uses are a part of his harmony approach. Its a bit redundant to have both of those levers but necessary when for this example I want to get all the steel parts correctly.

Emmon's lowered the G# a whole tone and another lever that lowered the B's to Bb...Got to have those for all those great and beautiful triadic fills that can't be accomplished any other way.......So now I must add two levers to capture those Emmons fills. Hughey lowered the G# to G....So either I slant the bar or add a half stop to the Emmon's whole tone lower or another lever has to be added. IMO no matter how its slanted it doesn't sound the same as when John uses it.....I'll just add a half stop to the existing G# lower for that reason alone.

Pete did not use a C pedal. Instead he raised the B to D on one pedal and next to it on the floor was another pedal that raised the E to F# only.....Both together gave him the "I Don't Want To Play House" licks....The E to F# change alone is on a multitude of 60's sessions. Too many hits in the 60's to ignore that need so I'll add two more floor pedals...I have to put them on the floor because those changes worked well with existing levers.

So if my goal is to legitimately go after the correct steel sounds of three of the 60's most prominent players on the E9th, that desire would require I play at least a S10 with 5 floors and 6 levers......When I add in a few changes from two more of the 60's players who were equally as prominent and also documented some neat sounds during the 60's I'm into the Crawford Cluster on both legs.

What's the goal, what setup, which day

PF

Or you could have about 10 guitars with different copedents(be a lot of seat hopping tho)also too many roadies on the bus

It can get pretty complicated can't it? (speaking for myself)I think some of us casual part time bar room players need to accept the fact that we won't get everything exactly the way it was on the records. It doesn't mean it has to sound bad, just not perfect.

I don't necessarily strive to play most parts like the record. I have my guitar with the E9th neck 4 and 5, without the Franklin Drop. I do have the 1st and 2nd string raise, which I can do without: I often say I used that change a full year before I put it on my guitar.
I wouldn't want to give up any of them, I find them all performing functions necessary to playing without thinking about HOW to wring what's in my head out of the strings.
I can play a 3&1 student model, I even enjoy the challenge (I played an entire gig on a wallpaper Maverick just for the challenge of it, and to show a student that he didn't have to wait for another guitar to start playing out). But I don't wanna work that hard on a regular basis.

PS: I find it easier pulling music out of a pedal steel than a lap steel or dobro

Herby Wallace told me once that he could get along with a 8+4 guitar as well as any. I do know he had several 9+6 guitars over the years.
Herby was a teacher and said " simple is better most times ". I know the experts like more and I understand that. I guess it is all about your level of understanding compaired to your ability.
My ability is low so I only have 8+5 and barely use them ! LOL

Maybe we should look from another angle..make a product then create the need. Put a different change on a string(s) then create a use for it.

Paul, thanks for your input. You're correct. I've had all of the changes you mentioned at one time or another. I'll list my simple set up here: LKL raises 4 & 8, LKR lowers 4 & 8, RKL lowers 10 and RKR lowers 2. If I hear a change I want, it'll only takes 5 minutes to add it. I like comfort and a smooth as butter feel on my guitars. There's a lot to work "within" the 3 & 4 set up. Of course, I've had a few loaded guitars and all of them were fine but for my playing needs, I didn't need it all. In closing for now Paul, again thanks for your input and I certainly understand and agree with your views and you being one of the leaders in the world of steel guitars, you've certainly raised the bar to a very high level. I've purchased several CD's simply because you were playing the steel tracks on them. Same with Mike Johnson, as well. Your comments are welcome. Thanks again.

I went from a double 12 to a single 8. It's working well for me.

Yup, it's still evolving. Sometimes less is more.

I just woke up with this thought on my brain: Folks then, as now, have two different approaches. Either you figure out how to transfer the music in your brain using the setup under your hands, or you alter the setup to make the brain/guitar interface easier.
Both approaches have merit.
God Bless Lloyd Green. God Bless Jimmy Crawford (Or Al Petty, with his row of heel pedals. That guitar made my brain hurt and I never even sat behind it).

I'm constantly trying new changes from time to time. Here today's. LKL & RKL are still the E levers on the Emmons set up. RKL is now lowering 9 to a C# and lowering 1 to a F note. RKR is lowering 2 & 6 1/2 a tone , to a D and G. The S-10D Carter should rest good tonight. She's got a new cover from Sharp Covers Nashville, by LeAnn. Color is butterscotch (tan). Thanks. ( Oh yea, by the way, the F# lower to F is used with the F KL'er.)

"Would you please play The Steel Guitar Rag"?
"Sorry this Steel guitar just doesn't have enough pedals"

There are a lot of things that I hear other players do that just aren't possible on my little single neck guitar. I've yet to find an audience member who can tell the difference, or a band member who cares.

Face it, guys. We add all of those strings, pedals and levers to satisfy ourselves, not because the music demands it. Look at this list of artists and then tell me why you need 20 strings, 8 pedals and 7 knee levers.

"Why don't you play Your Chetin' Heart like it was on the record?"
"I could but tonight I brought the steel that has pedals for MERLE HAGGARD songs."

I use a 3X5 at gigs. Changes are only as useful as you make them. If you dont use it much, you wont miss it much. I miss the vertical lever lowering B's when its gone, but its not essential because I dont use it that frequently. I have a Franklin pedal (and various other pulls) on other guitars at home, but am still learning how to use them. Extra pedals, levers, splits etc. dont provide as much value to me (an average beginning player for 6 years now) as they do to a consummate player who really knows how and why to use them all, and does actually use them. Mr. Franklin has all the changes covered, to enable him to play anything played before, and then some more that hasnt! (Because he can!)

As to the topic of going back to basics, I use my Carter Starter (3X4) at one rehearsal space, and use a Sierra Artist (3X2) at another. This is where I really see how valuable the lever lowering string 2 a half step is to me. I use it often enough that I really miss it not being there. So a 3X3 is about as basic as I'd prefer to revert to. I do this mostly out of convenience. Also, for the fact that these places are not air-conditioned when not in use, I would not leave a better guitar there. Its a little hot here in Texas in the summertime (although lately this week it looks hot everywhere).

OK, so I cant utilize a change I do not have, but it sure does simplify an intimidating instrument to begin with! As it is, theres plenty I cant play on either a 3X2 or an 8X7. Wheres my picks and tonebar? Im gonna go practice on the dobro now, thats about as basic as it gets.

Clete

Bob, I'd say you nailed it. If I can please one person in the crowd with Cheatin' Heart or 15 Years Ago, then it doesn't matter about the guitar, pedals or KL'ers. With my basic E9th set up, I can lower the E's and have a B6th tuning or press pedals 1 & 2 and the good ole Western Swing A chord shows up. The people I play to twice a week like anything from Look At Us(Hughey) to the ting-a ling sounds of Little Roy Wiggins. Add a little Ralph Mooney West Coast style and there we go. Thanks.

To go along with Billy's reasoning, I once met and had the pleasure of listening to gentleman in the Knoxville, TN area called Eagle Eye Hendricks. He played a student model MSA. I think it had 3 pedals,and not sure about the knees, but he played some of the prettiest stuff. One visable move he used was to pull strings with his little finger behind the bar. His intonation was as good as any pedal change I could imagine. To me, he was an impressive player. A lot of music theory between his ears and he conveyed it well. I think someone told me he had passed away some years back. Just wanted to keep one of the great's (to me) memories alive. - Ol' Fred

i remember when i first started out, i had a 3x2 Sho-Bud and always assumed i couldnt get all the sounds i heard because i needed at least 6 knees like the pro's. so i sold that, got me an Emmons with 6 knees and found a teacher, determined to learn this monster. i took a tape of all the stuff i wanted to learn and was amazed as the teacher listened and began to show me how they played it - 90% of the stuff was 3x1, which baffled me. to which he said, that was a "newbie trap". i finally had to get him to show me some stuff with the other levers so i'd know what purpose they served

i have a 3x2 '65 Sho-Bud Perm now and i enjoy playing that just as much as my loaded LLII, of course, i'm not trying to copy modern licks.

at Paul's Dallas seminar, he told a great story about Tommy White coming up with some really neat modern psg sounds and moves, everyone ran out to get those changes on their steels....except Lloyd - he figured out how to get em on his existing set up - not duplicating them exactly obviously, but finding a way to imitate them.

Paul;

Thank you so very much for explaining how those elusive tones were accomplished. I appreciate the detail.

Franklin wrote:Just to get all of the Lloyd stuff I'll start by loading the guitar with his exact 3 pedal and 4 lever set up....He doesn't lower the top E to Eb.....Yet Weldon, Rugg, and Buddy utilized that three string change on many hits during the 60's. So my opinion on that change is the slant can come close with two strings but when it comes to exactly capturing all of Weldon's and Buddy's three string fills the slant misses the bullseye. So I will add a lever that lowers the top E to Eb. This change has to be on a separate lever because I don't want to lose Lloyds lever which only lowers the low E to Eb. Those 4, 5 and 8 wide spread major seventh harmonies he uses are a part of his harmony approach.

I'll confess that I never noticed that wide grip major 7th in any of Lloyd's recordings, but maybe it's because I haven't studied them as closely as Paul has. In the unlikely event that I wanted that exact voicing on E9th, I'd either use the bar slant for the low note or play strings 1, 2 and 9 with the G lever engaged.

As I recall, Lloyd's reason for not lowering the 4th string was a mechanical concern, not a musical one. Omitting that change does have one really nice advantage, though: B+C+E makes a full, beautiful B9th chord. Emmons push-pull players also get this chord for free because of the "raises win" nature of the changer mechanism. On an all-pull you have to either omit the low D# or reach over to the first string to get the F# note.

In my current 8-string D6th copedent, I don't lower the middle root tone at all. In E9th terms, I have the 4th string lower from E9th, but not the 8th string lower. This is sort of the opposite of Lloyd's lever, and it's the same as the B lever on C6th. When I need that middle root lower, which is fairly often, I use the bar slant.

I guess my point is that we rarely need to add a pedal or lever to get the music and make it sound good. If your goal is to exactly duplicate the sounds on records, you might need to match the player's copedent. But you can almost certainly play the same notes on whatever copedent you have in front of you, if you just think about the music instead of the machine.

Remember, every two-note harmony line can actually be played without pedals. That's where it all started. The pedals are just there to make it easier.

Tom Brumley. 2 pedals, 2 knee levers, 1 ZB Custom guitar with Twin Reverb.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s3N2CASPY00

Thanks for starting this thread Billy. I play an s-10 with 3&4...most of the time it's 3&3. I know there are those that have all the levers,pedals,and changes they can get and that works for them. Look at Joe Wright, got every possibility on that guitar there could be, but he's Joe Wright. Like you said about the old set ups...those are the sounds that drew most of us into steel guitar in the first place. Most of us have are hands full with just these changes and the places or situations we play make us very useful with these changes. I remember watching Jeff Newman when he was just into 3&3, very impressive. Most would be hard pressed to keep up with him no matter how many changes we had. For me less is more and I think that philosophy would go a long way with the majority of players. So...all you players out there that think you need more, get all you can out of what you have before you go looking for and spending more. Imho,MD

Boy, I wish I'd read what Paul just wrote before he retracted it.

Michael, I think I disagree with your closing thought. If most of us waited until we got everything out of what we had, We would all have 8 string lap steels trying to catch up to Jerry Byrd!!

I would say that one should have at least three uses in mind before adding a lever or pedal.
In other words, know what you want to do with it, don't just add it because you saw that Paul or Tommy or Buddy or Doug or Curly had it.
I don't have a Franklin pedal because I haven't watched the videos on how to use it and my imagination has not told me what to do with it.
Having Paul's changes won't make you play like Paul, and levers don't come with a bag of Magic Franklin Dust (or Super Secret Crawford Powder). I dig the intensity he plays with. Unless you FEEL like he does, you'll not do better than coming close. And he'd sound like that on a Sidekick.