The Steel Guitar Forum

Years and years ago I got into using major modes when improvising over chord progressions. The modes I started using were from the major scale. For example using the dorian mode for minor chords and the mixolydian mode for dominate 7th chords. The modes have many more uses besides these two examples. I have recently been looking at minor scales and harmonizing them. In my study I have found modes of the minors. Melodic minor mode, Harmonic minor mode,and Natural or Pure minor mode. I am trying to figure out how these minor modes can be used in improvising over chord progressions, like I use the major modes. Thus far everyone seems to know what the minor modes are, but I have yet to find anyone who can explain how to use them to improvise over a chord progression. I know this is a deep subject, but maybe someone can help me understand minor modes?

Melodic minor modes are used most often by Jazz players.

The 4th and 7th modes are commonly used over dominant chords--the 7th mode being used mostly for V7 chords, giving an altered sound (b9, #9, #11, b13). Generally, you play the melodic minor 1/2 step above the root of your V7 chord resolving back to I or Imin, so if your V7 chord is E7, you would play F melodic minor (also known as E Altered).

In the case of the Lydian Dominant, it's generally used over IV7 or II7 or just dominant chords in general, so if your II7 chord is D7, you would play an A Melodic Minor (also known as the D Lydian Dominant). It is the melodic minor scale based a fifth above the chord's root.

There are many more uses for it, especially the Lydian Augmented (3rd mode) and Locrian #2 (6th mode) and that information is freely available everywhere.

Keith –

I realize this doesn’t actually answer your question(s), but I invite you to check out the Basic Minor & Expanded Minor Scales available for free download on my website. You might find some material there that would be of interest to you.

Click on the “Free Downloads” and you can choose to view, or download & print any of the instructional material you’re interested in.

Obviously there’s no obligation to make a purchase. If you know anyone who might enjoy or benefit from listening to my interpretations and also playing along to the backing tracks of Steel My Guitar Gently Weeps, please direct them to my website. Naturally, I encourage and appreciate anyone who's inspired to buy my CD. Regardless of what kind of music you enjoy playing & listening to, playing along to these melodic songs from the 60’s is an excellent learning tool, particularly in playing with songs that use a lot of Minor chords.

www.PedalSteelGuitarMusic.com

-- Marc

Well, things about minor scales are starting to gel in my thick head. I know there are many different applications, but here is how I see it thus far.
Take A minor for example. A minor could be simply A minor, or you could think of it as a substitute cord for a D7th. You could use the Dorian mode and play a G major scale to fit the A minor. You could also play a C major scale to fit the A minor. If you did that you would be using the Natural or Pure minor scale, and A is actually called the related minor to C. The G major scale and the C major scale only have one note different, so how each would fit with the A minor would depend on the sound of the F note in the C major scale, or the F# note in the G major scale. With these two minor scales figured out, all I have left to understand is the Harmonic and Melodic minor scales. The only difference between these two scales and the C major scale is there is a G# in the Harmonic minor, and both a G# and F# in the Melodic minor. The decending form of the Melodic minor is just like the natural or pure minor. I now almost have everything straight in my thick head.

You've been in the cookin' sherry again havn't you Keith ????

The reason we use Harmonic and Melodic minor scales is because the 7th degree of the scale yields a V dominant chord, whereas a natural minor scale yields a V minor chord.

Here are the diatonic triads of A Natural minor:

Amin Bdim CMaj Dmin Emin FMaj GMaj

See how V is Emin? Very weak resolution, undesirable in Western music.

Look at the diatonic triads of Harmonic and Melodic Minor (actually called Jazz Minor because the traditional Melodic Minor is different ascending and descending):

Harmonic Minor:

Amin Bdim Caug Dmin EMaj FMaj G#dim

Melodic Minor:

Amin Bmin Caug DMaj EMaj F#dim G#dim

Big difference. You can really hear the tendency to resolve.

This is the main reason we use these scales.

Mike thanks for trying to help this slow learner. I will study your last post and see if I can get it straight in my head. How one uses minor scales can vary. In my case, I am trying to use them to improvise "OVER" simple cords the band plays. Sometimes only a single note scale, or part of the scale will work. What is interesting is trying to add harmony notes to a single note scale that is working. Sometimes by adding harmony notes it will not work. Off hand, the problem I have with the Harmonic Minor Scale in A is the huge jump from the 6 to the 7th step. FMaj to G#dim, that is 3 frets. With the melodic minor the jump is not so great F#dim. to G#dim. Of course I have read Pat Martino's books where he talks about changing one note of a diminished chord and you have a dominant 7th chord. That is interesting. Also, Martino talks about changing one note in a minor scale and you have another minor. I can not remember how that worked.

That's some mighty fine writing Mike. Keith, if what he said is a little overwhelming, I could recommend that you get into harmonic minor via Lydian Dominant (4th mode). It's just like mixolydian but with a raised four. Pretty easy to visualize if you can already see the notes of mixolydian all over the neck.

Brett I did not understand your post and here is why. I looked up harmonic minor modes as follows."Here are the "technical" names for the Harmonic Minor modes acording to Gary Keller's book which is kind of becoming the standard in teaching these days.
1) Aeolian #7 - A B C D E F G# - AmMaj7(b6)
2) Locrian #6 - B C D E F G# A - Bm7b5/Bdim7
3) Ionian #5 - C D E F G# A B - Cmaj7#5
4) Dorian #4 - D E F G# A B C - Dm7(#11)
5) Phrygian #3 - E F G# A B C D - E7(b9,b13)
6) Lydian #2 - F G# A B C D E - Fmaj7(#9)
7) Mixolydian #1 - G# A B C D E F - G#dim7

Brett, I had to write another post to explain my last post. If you notice from my post, the Lydian is not the 4th mode in this list. Are you talking abut the 4th mode in a major scale, because the Lydian is not the 4th degree in this list? Also which mixolydian,and from what scale? Another confusing thing is when you say Lydian Dominant, because most of the time the Lydian is just listed as the Lydian without the word Dominant.
What is so confusing is what sale mode a person is talking about. Brett, would you please post the notes you are talking about, and designate which mode the scale is coming from? Thanks! You need to dumb it down for me.

Sorry Keith. I confused my melodic/harmonic again. It happens... The Lydian dominant scale is the fourth mode of melodic minor (ascending). "Lydian" and "Lydian dominant" are different scales, but only by one note.

In my opinion I think it can be easy to get off track, maybe loose your melodic sense when thinking about all of these mode substitutions. If you're playing single note melodies, it's still always just a note that you pick which is a certain distance from the root or tonic.

***Compared to a major scale***

Lydian - raised fourth (also 4th mode of major scale)
Mixolydian (or Dominant) - flat seven (also 5th mode of major scale)
Lydian Dominant - raised fourth and flat seven (also 4th mode of melodic minor)

Keith Hilton wrote:Mike thanks for trying to help this slow learner. I will study your last post and see if I can get it straight in my head. How one uses minor scales can vary. In my case, I am trying to use them to improvise "OVER" simple cords the band plays. Sometimes only a single note scale, or part of the scale will work. What is interesting is trying to add harmony notes to a single note scale that is working. Sometimes by adding harmony notes it will not work. Off hand, the problem I have with the Harmonic Minor Scale in A is the huge jump from the 6 to the 7th step. FMaj to G#dim, that is 3 frets. With the melodic minor the jump is not so great F#dim. to G#dim. Of course I have read Pat Martino's books where he talks about changing one note of a diminished chord and you have a dominant 7th chord. That is interesting. Also, Martino talks about changing one note in a minor scale and you have another minor. I can not remember how that worked.

Keith, don't try to shoehorn some of these scales into places where they are not welcome. The music has to be tolerant of it.

One of the most effective places to use it is over the V7 resolving to I or i--you can make an altered chord of it by using the altered extensions afforded by the Altered scale (7th mode of melodic minor).

2 other scales that should be looked at are the whole step-half step diminished scale and the half-step-whole step diminished scale. It is exactly as it says: whole step followed by a half step repeatedly and vice versa. If you're looking for a scale to play over an E7#9, for instance, the E half step-whole step scale is perfect:

E F G G# A# B C# D

Mike, good advise, and a wonderful choice of words. "Don't try and shoehorn these scales into places they are not welcome".
If you are playing with a band that is laying down complex cords, or even a lot of dominate 7th cords, you can get away with much more. On the other hand, if you are playing with a country band that is laying down simple 3 note cords, you are limited to what you can get away with. The real jewel is when you find a scale you can play against the band's chords reguardless if the band is playing extended complex cords, or simple 3 note cords. The best of all worlds is when you find that scale that seems to fit, and can be used over an entire sequence of chords the band plays. Seems to me Carlos Santana has been successful using the DORIAN mode over entire songs.

Here are some simple ways to think about these scales:

Non resolving dom7 - Melodic minor up a fifth. Ex. BbMaj7/ Eb7/ BbMaj7 - use Bb melodic minor over the Eb7. This mode (Lydian dominant), works with pretty much any dom7 chord

Resolving dom7 - Melodic minor up a half step. Ex Dmi7/G7/CMaj7 - over the G7, you could use an Ab melodic minor to create an "altered" sound (b9,#9, b5,#5, #11,b13)

Two other useful dom7 sounds are a fourth higher and a a whole step lower.

Any mi7b5 chord - melodic minor up a b3. Ex- Em7b5, use G melodic minor

In a minor ii V, you can use the 1 harmonic minor. Ex - Dm7b5/G7b9/Cm7 - over the Dm7b5 and the G7 (especially the G7), use C harmonic minor. The same two chords could also be played with F melodic minor for the Dm7b5, Ab melodic minor for the G7.

There many other uses for the scales, as well as modal names, and lots of useful theory pertaining to their uses. However, these examples are pretty easy to use and remember, to get started with.

a shortcut way of playing minor scales can be :
- Dorian of D m7 ( 2nd° of the C major scale) is a Bb major scale
- Phrygian of E m7 (3rd° of a C major scale ) is a AB major scale
- Aeolian of A m7 (6th° of a C6 major scale ) is a Eb major scale
- Locrian of B mb5 (7th° of a C major scale ) is a Db major scale

CrowBear Schmitt wrote:a shortcut way of playing minor scales can be :
- Dorian of D m7 ( 2nd° of the C major scale) is a Bb major scale
- Phrygian of E m7 (3rd° of a C major scale ) is a AB major scale
- Aeolian of A m7 (6th° of a C6 major scale ) is a Eb major scale
- Locrian of B mb5 (7th° of a C major scale ) is a Db major scale

CrowBear, all of those modes you listed are all the C Major scale.
D Dorian = C Maj
E phrygian = C Maj
A Aeolian = C Maj
B Locrian = C Maj

indeed Mike
replace those degrees of the C maj scale by the substitute major scales
is that better ?

Can I still consider myself a musician, when I have no clue what you guys are talking about? Seriously and no offense meant.

CrowBear Schmitt wrote:indeed Mike
replace those degrees of the C maj scale by the substitute major scales
is that better ?

So, in other words you're listing various C minor modes. OK, I'll buy that.

Joachim Kettner wrote:Can I still consider myself a musician, when I have no clue....

Joachim,
From what I have heard, Django was in the same boat as he had no clue but sure could play.

Meanwhile fellas, where's the beef? All this theorizing chatter with no audio and video back up is sorta like a 32 ounce container of Citracel minus the included pre-measured scoop....

You do not have to know music theory to be a great player. The guitar player in our band knows zero music theory. He does not even know the notes he is playing or the name of the cords. This fellow is probably the best guitar player in this area. On the other hand, I am different, I have to know what the notes are, and what the chords are. I may know more about music, but our guitar player can out play me and knows nothing about music.

It isn't about the "knowing" but about the ability to get from here to there... advancing your playing to another level or adding more knowledge that actually shows up in your playing. Many players have the ability to internalize or somehow remember sounds or positions that grow their playing, without knowing the "terminology" for what they do. For those of us who are at an impasse or block where we feel we're playing everything we know... any information that breaks down the wall and lets us advance even a bit is fantastic.
This whole thread is a goldmine.

Mark van Allen wrote:information that breaks down the wall...

MvA, agreed to a point. What is missing here are all those tools that will indeed break down a wall of sorts. I know a few folks who might benefit from said thread but will opt out simply because of an abundance of lip service and lack of practical applications. These same folks don't know the difference between dorian and a decent aperitif. However, if one could see and hear what is being discussed, how its laid out on E9 & C6th, w/pedals, no pedals, pockets, simple rhythm tracks with exercies-examples, then, a wall, some wall, willacome tumbling down.
Now, for the those few who are in the know, I would suggest a few walls have already been tackled. And thats a good thing. But rest assured, I feel there are more functioning illiterates out there than smarty pants.

You do not have to know music theory to be a great player.

Well, I would disagree with that. Unless - you are defining "music theory" as the ability to name and explain in approved scholarly terms what one is doing. In that case, sure. But if you define it as the systematic knowledge by which one can play a variety of music, the guy knows tons of it, right?

There are plenty of people who can talk till they're blue in the face, but they can't play too well because it's still all in their head. And your friend might very well be able to explain at least points of what he's doing, but only on his own terms (literally). There are some jazz "rules" like back cycling, major/minor equivalency and diminished movement that are used by musicians all the time, without having to be named.

Gary Lee Gimble wrote:

Mark van Allen wrote:information that breaks down the wall...

MvA, agreed to a point. What is missing here are all those tools that will indeed break down a wall of sorts. I know a few folks who might benefit from said thread but will opt out simply because of an abundance of lip service and lack of practical applications. These same folks don't know the difference between dorian and a decent aperitif. However, if one could see and hear what is being discussed, how its laid out on E9 & C6th, w/pedals, no pedals, pockets, simple rhythm tracks with exercies-examples, then, a wall, some wall, willacome tumbling down.
Now, for the those few who are in the know, I would suggest a few walls have already been tackled. And thats a good thing. But rest assured, I feel there are more functioning illiterates out there than smarty pants.

Gary, that's what a teacher is for.