The Steel Guitar Forum

Got a question here,I know that the relative minor is 3 frets down from the major with the a pedal depressed, but if I release the a pedal and use the E lower lever what would the chord be in this position?

That would be a minor 3 chord. If you're on the 3rd fret, no pedals or knee levers would be a G chord. When you lower the E strings it becomes a B minor. On the 8th fret the C chord found without altering any of the strings becomes an E minor when you kick in the knee lever.

Ray can this help... Please read attached disclaimer.

These are the tones of the "C" scale
---Do----Re----Mi----Fa----So---La----Ti----Do------
or--C-----D-----E-----F-----G----A-----B-----C------
or--1-----2-----3-----4-----5----6-----7-----8(1)---

The Re, D or 2nd tone is usually played as a minor
The Mi, E or 3rd tone is usually played as a minor
The La, A or 6th tone is usually played as a minor
The Ti, B or 7th tone is usually played as a diminish

Here is how they lay out at the 3rd fret, Pedal Down Root

1.__________________________________________________
2.__________________________________________________
3._______________________________1___________3B_____
4._____________________1____3____1E____6F____3______
5._________1A____3A____1____3____1_____6_____3A_____
6.___3B____1_____3_____1____3__________6____________
7.__________________________________________________
8.___3_____1_____3__________________________________
9.__________________________________________________
10.__3A_____________________________________________

And here at the 8th fret... No Pedal "Root"

1.__________________________________________________
2.__________________________________________________
3.______________________________________6_____8_____
4.________________________________8_____6F____8_____
5.________6_____8____8A____10A____8A____6_____8_____
6.___8____6_____8____8B____10B____8_________________
7.__________________________________________________
8.___8____6E____8E___8_____10_______________________
9.__________________________________________________
10.__8______________________________________________

Disclaimer:
Usually does not mean always and the 2,3 and 6 tones can be played as Major or other chord types.

The E lever lowers that string 1/2 tone.

I hope I understood the question you implied correctly. I also hope this is of some use.

And lastly, I think the relative minor you are referring to is the 6th tone. Please correct me if I'm wrong or have made a mistake in my tab.

Ray Anderson wrote:I know that the relative minor is 3 frets down from the major with the a pedal depressed

Perhaps there is a typo here?

If you start with pedals down, for example on the eight fret, you will have an F chord.

If you keep the A pedal down and go down 2 frets you will have an Gm chord which is not the relative minor of F. It is the relative minor of Bb.

However, if you release the A pedal and use the E lower you will then have a Dm which is the relative minor of F.

As for the relative minor, the second chord in the "ice cream" progression is the relative minor. For example, F, Dm, Bb, C. 8th fret pedals down, 6th fret E lower, 6 fret open, 8th fret open.

Hey guys, been working on my minors and their connections per your suggestions and that was a great help. Thanks to all that took time to help. And, yes Dick that was a very large help and something I'll save and use. I guess I need to practice more with the 2,3 and 6 into the melody,they sure sound "sweet" when used in perspective.

Ray, glad your going to be able to use some of that. There is also some good discussion on a parallel subject going on here: http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=222229

You might also use the forum search for Beginners Notes. I've put up about 5 years of material, in snippit form, of my return to pedal steel. Might find something you like there. My best to you, enjoy the ride!

My quarry here is this,if I were to see i.e. G#M on a sheet of music, I want to know where to find it without thinking too long.I want to be able to associate the fret position for these minors.I neef to be able to find them on the fly. G#m is on B with the A pedal (correct me if I'm wrong on that). Whilt in that position I released the A pedal and lowered the Es, I was wondering what chord would that be and is that a whole new lesson of finding chords ( with the Es lowered) I guess my first post was misleading to some and for that I appologize. Your help is appreciated. I could not learn if it were not for this Forum.

Here are a few ways to find them, there are more, those I need to learn my self.

Lets work with "A" and "A minor" or Am. If you can do this with one Major chord, you can do it with all of them. Test me here to make sure I didn't make a mistake.

And just so no one gets confused. My copedant is Standard Emmons E9th with the exception that, I call my lever that lowers my E's, my E lever. My F lever raises my E's to F. Below, I've explained what my vertical lever does.

1) One fret up from the Pedal Down Position of a Major Chord, with the E lever only engaged, gives you the minor of that Major chord.

2) Four frets back from the Pedal Down Position of a Major chord, with the A pedal only engaged, gives you the minor of that Major chord.

3) Three frets up from the No Pedal Position of a Major chord, with the A pedal only engaged, gives you the minor of that Major chord.

4) Four frets back from the No Pedal Position of a Major chord, with the E lever only engaged, give you the minor of that Major chord.

5) At he Pedal Down Position, with the Vertical Lever that drops strings 5 and 10, 1/2 step, give you the minor of the Major.

6) Two frets back from the No Pedal Position or Three frets up from the Pedal Down Position with the B&C Pedals gives you the minor of that Major chord.

Now all you have to do is plug in you G# Major into the above word formulas and Wala you have it.

Seems like a lot to know and it is, and there are other place to find said minor, but soon it will become near automatic, only requiring occasional thought to find them.

Hope it helps...

Ray
You might want to think in terms of using the number system when working with your minors in any key.

NO matter what your root chord is you will find that the 6 minor is usually the minor most songs will include - ie-Key of G the 6th is an E minor.
Key of C the 6th is an A minor.
The 3 minor can be a great passing chord to the 4 chord, etc.

Look up Mark Van Allen's theory for E9th course. It will help you grasp all of the theory you need to begin understanding PSG and will show you how and where to find and use the minor's to great effect.

I return to his lessons constantly.

Hey George, Yes I have the Mark van Allen course and I'm going over it again, great stuff. But I like "picking the brain" of others, amazing what you can learn from them. Like your comment for instance, very good observation that had eluded me (the 6 is in fact the most common). I believe we think so hard sometimes that we overlook the obvious, and just a simple reminder was all we needed. Thanks for your help, and to all that take the time.

A word of caution here is that you need to know the copedant you are playing, LKL is not the same for everyone.

A word of caution here is that you need to know the copedant you are playing, LKL is not the same for everyone.

While this is true, I saw no mention of LKL in this thread.

And just so no one gets confused. My copedant is Standard Emmons E9th with the exception that, I call my lever that lowers my E's, my E lever. My F lever raises my E's to F. I've explained what my vertical lever does.

I think tomorrow, I'll call the lever that lowers my E's the D lever and my vertical that lowers the 5th and 10th, the uppity thingie.

Ray Anderson wrote:My quarry here is this,if I were to see i.e. G#M on a sheet of music, I want to know where to find it without thinking too long.I want to be able to associate the fret position for these minors.I need to be able to find them on the fly.

What you should do (in my opinion) is learn the 3 basic minor chord positions, A pedal, E strings lowered, and pedals 2 and 3 (or B and C of you prefer) memorize where all the minor chords that you frequently use are, just as you have memorized the locations of the frequently used major ones.

If you know how to find an A minor chord. A G# minor would be the same pedal and or knee lever position with the bar back one fret.

One of the things I practiced a lot, and use while playing to this day, is arpeggios through the positions Dick sketched out. For example, Am at fret 1 with E to Eb lever in, strings 10, 8, 6, then 8, 6, 5, then up to 3rd fret strings 7, 6, 5, then 6, 5, 4 (B&C pedals down), then up to fret 8 with A pedal only, and so on. Experiment with different string combinations and moving up or down on different strings to the next positions.
For other kinds of connections, remember the relative major scales, so for any Am chord you can usually connect any of the actual minor triad positions with notes or licks from the C major scale (Aeolian mode) or G major scale (Dorian mode). You can use the horizontal major scale positions you may already know to move up and down the neck, and then touch down at any of the minor triad positions.

I strongly agree that the memorization and utilization of any chord/ scale type in improvising is infinitely easier when perceived as a part of the number structure of the song or progression of the moment. Numbers rule!

And many thanks for the props on the theory courses, I'm very glad to hear when they've helped somebody!

I am beginning to work on a few Neil Young songs. I am running into some Am7 and Em7 chords. The Am7 works out to be A-C-E-G. I think I found it at 8 fret with A pedal strings 6,5,4 and 1 (I am not sitting at my guitar at the moment so this is 62 year old recall.) I guess my overall question is where are the minor 7th's.

I don't know but I think the keyboard player has mine!

Great. Give him a call and you two can go out and have another beer. This is another example of why beginners like myself are hesitant to post. This thread on chords was going along so well.

Sorry Jack, I don't know the answer to you question was not trying to offend you. Just something I have never contemplated. I am sure you will get a serious answer.

Am7 = C6, so, 1st fret w. E's lowered, root on string 6 & 3.
Also, 3rd fret w. A+B pedals, root on string 7 & 1.

Em7 = G6 ; 7 frets above those positions

Chris

Jack Willis wrote:I guess my overall question is where are the minor 7th's.

To get you started, there is an Am7 on the first fret using just your E lower lever. Actually all the strings except the 9th are part of the Am7 in this position.

Ray Anderson wrote:...the relative minor is 3 frets down from the major with the a pedal depressed...

This is incorrect. The relative minor of a no pedals major chord (lets say strings 10, 8, 6, 5,4,3) is at the same fret with the A pedal. Fret 8 no pedals = C, fret 8 w A pedal = Am (relative minor).

On a fretted guitar, the relative minor is often played three frets down in a minor form from the relative major. You may have been thinking in those terms here.

Clete

There was a time when I would jump in here and add some tab.