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Topic: Questions on slant bar technique and muting |
Helmut Gragger
From:
Austria
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Posted 15 Apr 2012 11:48 am |
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Working my way through the Jerry Byrd course book I realize that there are some flaws in my bar technique that I have adopted over the years.
There is some string rattle on the wound strings when I use bar vibrato. What sounds good on a bluesy dobro lick, sounds bad on a Hawaiian tune.
Imagine just vibrating the bar without picking the strings. There is bound to be some noise to be evoked on the wound strings. I don´t hear this on recordings, either it is masked by the other instruments or muted some way.
If I grip the bar as suggested on the Jerry Byrd video, there is no way I can mute the lower strings with the thumb withoug increasing the problem.
Does anybody have a solution or is this just what one has to live with?
Another problem arises on slants, the wider (the more angled) the worse. Since the point where the strings (even the plain ones) touch the bar is increased on slants, some sitar like ringing appears. I tried light presure, heavy pressure, no difference.
The bar is free of dents.
I do not see how this can be remedied, yet I don´t hear it on records.
Your expertise is very much appreciated, gentlemen.
-helmut |
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Frank Welsh
From:
Upstate New York, USA
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Posted 15 Apr 2012 12:28 pm
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Helmut, some of that unwanted ringing or sitar-like noises on those slants can be related to the scale of the guitar and the spacing between the strings. All other things being equal (your technique for example) the longer scales and closer string spacings will make clean sounding slants harder to do. Jerry Byrd recommended the shorter 22 1/2 inch scale for that liquid Hawaiian style where slants are an integral part of that smooth, almost seamless playing style.
Perhaps you could tell us what the scale is on your guitar and also measure the string spacing at the nut. Usually 3/8 inches at the nut is ideal. A common complaint, especially with some 8-string steels, is that the string spacing is too close to make slants on the lower positions clean. I have one such guitar that makes clean slants impossible on the lower positions (an 8-string with a longer scale). My other guitars are mostly 22 1/2 inch (both 6-string and 8-string) and allow easy clean slants if I do my part. |
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Paul Seager
From:
Augsburg, Germany
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Dave Mayes
From:
Oakland, Ca.
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Posted 15 Apr 2012 6:45 pm
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Hello Helmut,
I block out those unwanted rattles, etc., of the wound strings with the palm of my right hand. My right hand generally rests on the strings in a more or less standard right hand palm blocking position . As I pluck, my palm mutes all the strings below the lowest note of the group of notes I pluck. My guitar hears everything, and I would loose my mind if I didn't employ this technique.
As to the sitar like ringing on your slants, you may want to have a close look at the positioning of your left hand trailing fingers, especially the narrower knuckle area on the underside of your fingers.
Hope this helps. |
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Ray Montee
From:
Portland, Oregon (deceased)
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Posted 15 Apr 2012 9:13 pm Here's what I've experienced................
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When the bottom four strings are measureably larger in diameter than the top four strings, I've found that the bar is held "UP" in the air just enough to make the string rattling that I believe you described.
That is the reason I don't use store bought string packages. |
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Helmut Gragger
From:
Austria
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Posted 15 Apr 2012 11:05 pm
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Folks,
slant problem:
I realized I should have mentioned this: I made my steel exactly to the recommendations of Jerry as you mention it Frank, 22.5" scale and 3/8" spacing, not tapering towards the nut.
I have a Rick B8 that is tapered. This never stopped me from doing any slants, but if you are making a guitar yourself you might as well do it right and not obey to cosmetic dictates.
So this can´t be the cause.
Ray, if heavy bottom strings cause too high leverage this could be remedied by filing down the nut. I look into it.
Dave, I must have a look what my left hand´s trailing fingers do while I am busy playing 
vibrato string rattle:
Dave, I suspected that some people block the bottom strings with the palm. I tried it, suppose with some training it is doable. I looked closely at the Byrd video and I did not recognize him doing this.
He must have a different method. He also did not have some high-tech bar.
With forceful plucking the overall volume goes up, so does the signal/noise ratio so to speak. The problem only appears on long vibrato notes that are sustained with the volume pedal.
I believe that in a solo performance it would be heard even with pro players. Less loud signals would be swamped by other instruments.
So it seems I am not the only one running into this without hard and fast solution.
Thanks for your help.
-helmut |
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Rick Aiello
From:
Berryville, VA USA
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Posted 16 Apr 2012 4:20 am
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No ... He didn't use a " high tech" bar ... But there were some 'secrets' he'd admit to ... Only if they were figured out by the student ... 
He used flat wounds and three identical plain strings on top.
He also would turn his tone all the way off ... Then bring it up to where it just barely " comes on" .... His amps treble was rolled way off too.
That said ... He would tell you to scrutinize your technique ... It takes years to develop his slant bar style.
To help you on your way ... Here is the best footage I have ... You will be hard pressed to find a finer example of JB ' s expert left hand finesse ... And right hand control.
http://www.horseshoemagnets.com/jbfrypan1990.wmv |
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Ray Montee
From:
Portland, Oregon (deceased)
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Posted 16 Apr 2012 7:39 am Some of the best video.....................
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RICK......you're absolutely correct.....that video clearly shows so very much that could never be explained in a thousand words.
I'm sure he's going to appreciate your contribution. |
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Ron Whitfield
From:
Kaaawa, Hawaii, USA
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Posted 16 Apr 2012 9:43 am
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| Funny thing about the 3 .16's tho, that it was only a part of his thinking for a relatively short time, as he certainly didn't maintain it throughout his career. If Ray still incorporates it, he and I may be the only ones who do. I'm overdue to reply to Wayne Tanner, Jerry's closest living emulator and great friend, so this thankfully piqued topic will be queried further. |
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Helmut Gragger
From:
Austria
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Posted 16 Apr 2012 10:29 am Re: Some of the best video.....................
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| Ray Montee wrote: |
| I'm sure he's going to appreciate your contribution. |
If you mean myself, yes I surely am.
I did not know this videoclip.
Jerry not only was a fabulous player, he also was capable of good wit. Most of all, he could touch your heart.
When I heared the piece he calls "sentimental" I could not stop bursting into tears. A sure sign my heart listens.
Does not happen too often!
One of the days I will take a run at that. I must watch the video again, didn´t pay enough attention to what tuning he said he plays.
-helmut
_________________
feel at home at: http://me.aquataur.guru |
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Rick Aiello
From:
Berryville, VA USA
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Posted 16 Apr 2012 1:04 pm
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I tried the three 0.016 strings when Ray first enlightened us here, years ago ...
I couldn't handle the "Full Montee" ... ...
But I do use a 0.017, 0.018, 0.020 plain and 0.022 plain ... I affectionately call it the "Half Montee" ... ...
I like D'Addario Electric Chrome Flatwounds for the rest.
Anyway ... Those songs in that frypan set are ...
Kawohikukapulani ...
Surprise Waltz ...
I'll be All Smiles Tonight ...
Tomi Tomi ...
E9 tuning ... (hi to lo) E B G# F# E D (B G#) |
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Twayn Williams
From:
Portland, OR
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Posted 16 Apr 2012 2:31 pm
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I've found using a Broz-o-phonic bar helps reduce "sitaring" when doing 2-fret forward slants.
_________________
Primitive Utility Steel |
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Mike Neer
From:
NJ
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Posted 17 Apr 2012 6:54 am
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Another quality of Jerry Byrd's playing is that it often sounds like more than one guitar
when he played harmonies. He had such control over his touch that the harmony notes sounded
independent of the melody with even different dynamics. Listen to La Golondrina for an example.
This is one of the wonders of the steel guitar.
_________________
Links to streaming music, websites, YouTube: Links |
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