The Steel Guitar Forum

Noob alert, just starting out:

(for C6th tuning on an 8 string - ACEGACEG) is the short answer either "you can't (pick another tuning)**"

or

"don't play the 7th"?

It's such a simple song, and the E7th really needs to be there: I'm after both the G# and the D to fit the two melodies (vocal and bass)

C - E7 - Am - F
C - Am - F - G - C

any suggestions?

thanks

** something that'll do minor7th chords too. Perhaps something based on C6th but with one string tuned slightly differently to do these chords?

I use (high to low) G E C A G E C A, and therefore, the top 4 strings automatically make a minor7.
I make a basic E7 by barring the top two strings with the tip of the bar at the 4th fret, and slanting the rear end of the bar forward on the 4th string to the 5th fret to raise the 6th note of the chord to a 7th. I alternately straight bar any or all of the first four strings, and do a finger pull behind the bar with my left ring finger to pull (bend)the 6th note (fourth string)up to a 7th.
There are other ways to get 7ths, but these are simple.
Pulling a string behind the bar is something I've had to learn to do to get the right harmonies in all sorts of situations.
Hope this helps.

Don McGregor wrote:I use (high to low) G E C A G E C A, and therefore, the top 4 strings automatically make a minor7.

... so in other words, hang in there with C6th, and with getting a 7th, it's gravy...

Don McGregor wrote: I make a basic E7 by barring the top two strings with the tip of the bar, and slanting the rear end of the bar forward on the 4th string to raise the 6th note to a 7th.

I've seen the really good players at the monthly club meet do this. I dunno, playing a 4-note chord while slanting to capture that stray semitone ... seems a bit of a stretch

Don McGregor wrote: I alternately straight bar any or all of the first four strings, and do a finger pull behind the bar with my left ring finger to pull (bend)the 6th note (fourth string)up to a 7th.

that's cheating! (cheeky! I like it). It's like having a pedal, but not.

[tab]
G-----------------------------
E-----------------------------
C---12----11------------------
A---------11-----12-----8-----
G---12------------------------
E---12----10-----12-----8-----
C----------------12-----8-----
A-----------------------------
[/tab]

That's just one way, but it depends on the voice leading you want. In my example, the upper voices descend scale-wise beginning with the C.

I too, pull the 6th up to a 7th behind the bar..Takes some practice but once learned it's easy..

although it isnt necessary for the chord progression you have listed, if you needed a full dom7 sound out of the C6, many players raise the low C > C#, which gives you a dom7 on the 6th degree of the scale. so you would have A7 over a C6. you lose your root position 1 chord, but it opens up/solves a lot of other problems.

dont forget you are free to use open strings along with barred strings - you can get a LOT of dom/altered/sus chords that way - you would be surprised at the chords you can get out of the first 3 frets.

The "dogleg" bar slant is a must, but also consider tuning your lowest A to Bb, instead. Some good chordal possibilities besides the standard 7th chord. As Jerome mentions, the A7/C6 tuning achieved by raising the low C to C# is a beauty for full Dom7th chords. Either of these tunings is easier to get used to than you might think, especially if you're just starting and haven't developed any strong habits, yet.

I tune my lowest string to Bb also.....and you get a nice Dom7 chord over the 4 lowest strings with no gaps to grip across. Of course, the m7 chord is at strings 2-5 with no gaps too. For a noob like me, it is a blessing.

John Allison wrote:The "dogleg" bar slant is a must, but also consider tuning your lowest A to Bb, instead. Some good chordal possibilities besides the standard 7th chord.

I believe that is the Junior Brown C13 tuning?

One of the drawbacks of that C13 tuning is that you lose the min7 chords using the low A as the root. It may not seem like much, but if you are a chord player, it is. The best of all worlds for me is the C6/A7, where you only tune the C to C# (7th string). With that tuning, it is possible to easily get ii-V7 changes. But, why not use both tunings? No one says you shouldn't re-tune as needed--I know I do it often.

I am contemplating writing a book called, "C6 and Beyond" which focuses on all the variations of the C6 tuning--the C6 family.

Mike: Contemplating a C6th book? Please, please, please, do it! The way you approach such things makes them especially valuable. There just are not enough quality tools in this field.

James

I'd be on that book like my dog on a biscuit Mike!

thanks for your help, guys. Appreciated.

Cheers
B

Don McGregor wrote: I make a basic E7 by barring the top two strings with the tip of the bar, and slanting the rear end of the bar forward on the 4th string to raise the 6th note to a 7th.

"I've seen the really good players at the monthly club meet do this. I dunno, playing a 4-note chord while slanting to capture that stray semitone ... seems a bit of a stretch..."

Barry-- the slant Don is referring to is a 3-note chord (you don't play the 3rd string). You can line up strings 4 and 2, and use a little extra bar pressure on the 1st string to bring it up to pitch. With practice you'll get the right combination of bar position & pressure. I sometimes use a light pull behind the bar with my LH ring finger to get that 1st string sounding right.

You could also play the 2nd string open against this 2-note forward slant: 5th string 1st fret/ 3rd string 2nd fret. Play only strings 2,3 & 5 with the nose of the bar clear of string 2 to let it ring open. Or, depending on the voicing you want, don't play the open E at all.

A book about the C6th family & related tunings is a great idea Mike. It still seems to be the most versatile tuning around.

Mike Neer wrote: No one says you shouldn't re-tune as needed--I know I do it often.

Absolutely!

By changing only the lowest 2 strings, you have huge possibilities for different chords. If I'm playing swing jazz (okay, trying to), I'll tune my C to C# in addition to my low Bb (yes, Junior Brown 13th)to get some very useful flat 5 straight bar chords as well as full diminished ( I think it's full and not half) on the lower 4 strings. By tuning the low C to D, I've got a killer full C13th tuning that gives fat 9 chords on the bottom- very "Speedy".
Once you get over the hump, it's not intimidating to change a string or two.

The easiest way is hitting strings 4-5-6 at the 7th fret. The notes are E-D-B in that order. Let the guitarist hit the 3rd tone of the scale.

Barry,

I'm a relative newcomer myself - as well as being an Aussie.

I'm teaching myself as my plan for a tutor fell through.......so I developed my F13 tuning for 6 string......being L to H, Eb-F-A-C-D-F. The bottom string is used for the 7th and the 5th string is used for the tonic - for major chords.

So why this odd tuning? Well, I am a clarinet player of some 40 years standing and I'm used to playing in the ''brass'' keys and have visions of playing New Orleans jazz on the SG....and some Western Swing..........if I can find some like minded blokes! Incidentally, a good proportion of my WS recordings are in the ''brass'' keys too.

Anyway, I seem to be able to obtain any number of the required chords, with just 6 strings and the afore mentioned tuning without slants - and using slants, the scope is expanded much more. It seems that with 8 strings the possibilities would be even more generous.

Without having an 8 stringer to experiment with, I can't offer suggestions for your top 2 strings, but perhaps if you start with (L to H) Bb-C-E-G-A-C to keep you in a C tuning and, retune your top 2 as you want.

As you can see, the bottom 4 strings already give you a C7th chord. So far I have charted the positions for major, minor, seventh, maj seventh, sus2, diminished, thirteenth, augmented and of course, the sixth. Slants are involved with just a few of the infrequently used chords.

By the way.......you're not a relative of Peter Beattie are you?

Using a C6th tuning..........
TOP (1st) string is "E".

what chord do you have if you pick the 2nd, 3rd and
5th strings......, applying a split string slant with the two top strings, and the lower note lowered one fret?

Say, on the 5th fret, F chord, slanted to include the 4th fret on the lower string.

If your #1 string is E it should be a Bb7th. If your top string is a G I think it might be a G9th. Not positive about the last one..or the first one for that matter.

John Ed Kelly wrote:Barry,

I'm a relative newcomer myself - as well as being an Aussie.

I'm teaching myself as my plan for a tutor fell through.......so I developed my F13 tuning for 6 string......being L to H, Eb-F-A-C-D-F. The bottom string is used for the 7th and the 5th string is used for the tonic - for major chords.

So why this odd tuning? Well, I am a clarinet player of some 40 years standing and I'm used to playing in the ''brass'' keys and have visions of playing New Orleans jazz on the SG....and some Western Swing..........if I can find some like minded blokes! Incidentally, a good proportion of my WS recordings are in the ''brass'' keys too.

Anyway, I seem to be able to obtain any number of the required chords, with just 6 strings and the afore mentioned tuning without slants - and using slants, the scope is expanded much more. It seems that with 8 strings the possibilities would be even more generous.

Without having an 8 stringer to experiment with, I can't offer suggestions for your top 2 strings, but perhaps if you start with (L to H) Bb-C-E-G-A-C to keep you in a C tuning and, retune your top 2 as you want.

As you can see, the bottom 4 strings already give you a C7th chord. So far I have charted the positions for major, minor, seventh, maj seventh, sus2, diminished, thirteenth, augmented and of course, the sixth. Slants are involved with just a few of the infrequently used chords.

By the way.......you're not a relative of Peter Beattie are you?

John
A tuning similar to yours is one John Ely showed me years ago, C13th.

Low to high: C Bb C E G A C E

Strings 6 and 8 being one octave apart.

"Using a C6th tuning..........
TOP (1st) string is "E".

what chord do you have if you pick the 2nd, 3rd and
5th strings......, applying a split string slant with the two top strings, and the lower note lowered one fret?

Say, on the 5th fret, F chord, slanted to include the 4th fret on the lower string."
_________________
Ray,
This 3 string split slant is also theoretically three notes of an Fdim6, the fingering of which can also be slid up or down the neck at three fret intervals to voice it higher or lower, and can also be named after any of the notes contained by the full four note diminihed6 chord. Fdim6 Abdim6 Cb(B)dim6 Ddim6.
Or that could just be the coffee talking.

Don,

Just to be musically correct, there is no such thing as a dim6 chord. It's a dim7th chord. The rule is root, b3, b5 and bb7. The double flat 7 does become the same pitch as the 6th but we call it a double flat 7 instead.

Don,

Just to be musically correct, there is no such thing as a dim6 chord. It's a dim7th chord. The rule is root, b3, b5 and bb7. The double flat 7 does become the same pitch as the 6th but we call it a double flat 7 instead.

Thank you, Mike. I had always thought of these as a type of 6th chord, as the 6th note of the major scale based on the root note is present. I went Wikipedia and a couple other theory sites, and now have a refreshed view of diminished chords.