I'll probably soon be given a golden opportunity to build a lap steel¹, which I like, since I've toyed with the idea of one for awhile, and only have a G6 Dobro 8 and a 6-string Stratoclone (Which sounds pretty cool in position 2 or 4, BTW).
I've noticed almost all lap steels are shorter scale than the 24-25.5 range of the pedal steels. This brings a few questions to my mind
1: Why is a lap steel generally shorter?
2: As I have to assume tone plays a difference in #1, can you describe the difference in sounds of the different scale lengths, the Zappa quote "talking about music is like dancing about architecture" notwithstanding?
3: Since I'll have free rein in deciding how/what the guitar should be, should someone wanting a mostly clean tone playing a mix of swing and blues want to run towards the shorter or longer scales?
4: I was thinking of branching away from the C6 I'm used to (and, to my limited experience, E9 loses its appeal once you take away the changer), and I'll have a ten string pickup and ten string keyhead, what suggestions would you have for 10-string tuning choices?
¹I'm wanting to transition from a D-10 player to a Bb6 U-12; it looks like the acquisition may happen by a friend buying a U-12 and swapping for my MSA D-10. But he has no interest in C6, and would rather I convert it to SD-10, which would not only give me a bunch of undercarriage hardware, but neck, pickup and ten-string keyhead. While I regard that as sacrilege, he has no use for C6 and I'll have immediate use for at least three of the four pedals I'll remove
Differing scale lengths; which to choose and why?
Moderator: Brad Bechtel
Differing scale lengths; which to choose and why?
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects
More amps than guitars, and not many effects
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David Venzke
- Posts: 1350
- Joined: 24 Jul 2006 12:01 am
- Location: SE Michigan, USA
Lane,
I would encourage you to try playing different scale lap steels to find out what you like. I've owned a number of shorter scale (<23") lap steels and have sold all of them because I don't like anything shorter than 23" myself. I actually prefer a longer scale -- but everybody's different. I own one vintage Oahu Tonemaster that's 25" scale and have built several 25" scale laps, too. Like them all ....
So, if you have music/guitar shops in your area try to find some laps to try out. Maybe you'll find that you like the shorter scale and maybe not.
-Dave
I would encourage you to try playing different scale lap steels to find out what you like. I've owned a number of shorter scale (<23") lap steels and have sold all of them because I don't like anything shorter than 23" myself. I actually prefer a longer scale -- but everybody's different. I own one vintage Oahu Tonemaster that's 25" scale and have built several 25" scale laps, too. Like them all ....
So, if you have music/guitar shops in your area try to find some laps to try out. Maybe you'll find that you like the shorter scale and maybe not.
-Dave
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William Lake
- Posts: 612
- Joined: 14 Dec 2009 5:54 am
- Location: Ontario, Canada
Most, but not all, lap players like the 22 1/2 inch scale because it makes slanting more accurate. Your 10 string will have the string spacing closer so that logic will not apply.
Before you give up on E9 non pedal, listen to Mike Neer's version of Buddy's Boogie on E9 8string. It will open your ears.
Before you give up on E9 non pedal, listen to Mike Neer's version of Buddy's Boogie on E9 8string. It will open your ears.
Bill
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David Venzke
- Posts: 1350
- Joined: 24 Jul 2006 12:01 am
- Location: SE Michigan, USA
For me, the main difference is one of comfort when playing -- I'm just not comfortable playing short scale lap steels.
Otherwise, here's some food for thought:
Slants are supposed to be easier to do on a shorter scale than on a long scale ...
Long scale = more sustain ...
As far as tone goes, I think that's more an issue of equipment (pickup, preamp, amp, etc.) and technique than it is scale length ...
Shorter scale often means a shorter instrument, too, which is easier to carry around ....
I'm sure someone else will be along shortly to tell you how well-suited short scale laps are for what you want to do ......
-Dave
Otherwise, here's some food for thought:
Slants are supposed to be easier to do on a shorter scale than on a long scale ...
Long scale = more sustain ...
As far as tone goes, I think that's more an issue of equipment (pickup, preamp, amp, etc.) and technique than it is scale length ...
Shorter scale often means a shorter instrument, too, which is easier to carry around ....
I'm sure someone else will be along shortly to tell you how well-suited short scale laps are for what you want to do ......
-Dave
Last edited by David Venzke on 25 Mar 2014 8:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Morgan Scoggins
- Posts: 530
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- Location: Georgia, USA
Lane,
My Remington single neck 8 string steel has a 22 1/2" scale. I bought it from Herb Remington and he suggested I buy the shorter scale instrument. The shorter scale makes bar slanting easier, especially on the lower frets.
Another benefit that I like is that shorter scale guitar can take a bit heavier string gage since the string tension is a bit less on a short scale, everything else being equal.I use several tunings, A6, C6, B11, and C#mi9. The normal string gages would be .14 .17. .20 .24 .30 .36..40 and .52 for a full scale instrument. I use a .16 .18 .22 .26 .30 .38.42 and .54.
I have never liked the thin sound of those thin strings.
My Remington single neck 8 string steel has a 22 1/2" scale. I bought it from Herb Remington and he suggested I buy the shorter scale instrument. The shorter scale makes bar slanting easier, especially on the lower frets.
Another benefit that I like is that shorter scale guitar can take a bit heavier string gage since the string tension is a bit less on a short scale, everything else being equal.I use several tunings, A6, C6, B11, and C#mi9. The normal string gages would be .14 .17. .20 .24 .30 .36..40 and .52 for a full scale instrument. I use a .16 .18 .22 .26 .30 .38.42 and .54.
I have never liked the thin sound of those thin strings.
"Shoot low boys, the're ridin' Shetlands"
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Rick Collins
- Posts: 6006
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- Location: Claremont , CA USA
Lane, I play a Fender Dual Pro. (8-string) with a 22&1/2" scale and a triple Fender Stringmaster with a 26" scale.
Each has its own "personality".
Slants in the lower register are only slightly more difficult on the 26" scale.
And, it will only take you a short while to get use to it.
In a near perfect world, where availability would be unlimited, my choice for a console steel guitar
would be a dual nine string with a 26" scale and big horse-shoe pickups.
Each has its own "personality".
Slants in the lower register are only slightly more difficult on the 26" scale.
And, it will only take you a short while to get use to it.
In a near perfect world, where availability would be unlimited, my choice for a console steel guitar
would be a dual nine string with a 26" scale and big horse-shoe pickups.
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Ray Montee
- Posts: 9506
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- Location: Portland, Oregon (deceased)
- Contact:
About those TOY SIZED lap steels...............
If you have not already, it's suggested that you, for your own exclusive benefit take a few moments and listen to any of JERRY BYRD's early 1949-1950-ish Mercury records that he recorded ever so successfully on one of those "little TOY GUITARS".
His TONE, His SLANTS and everything else is absolutely perfect on his "little TOY GUITAR". Jerry was so 'rich in his creativity, sound and playing technique' that his "little TOY GUITAR" made him one of Nashville and Cincinnati's most successful session steel guitar players of the day. The thousands of sessions that JERRY recorded for countless vocal artists around the country should attest to his success in playing that "little TOY GUITAR".....with its 22.5 inch scale, in those days prior to reverb and stomp boxes.
Give a listen at www.jerrybyrd-fanclub.com/
His TONE, His SLANTS and everything else is absolutely perfect on his "little TOY GUITAR". Jerry was so 'rich in his creativity, sound and playing technique' that his "little TOY GUITAR" made him one of Nashville and Cincinnati's most successful session steel guitar players of the day. The thousands of sessions that JERRY recorded for countless vocal artists around the country should attest to his success in playing that "little TOY GUITAR".....with its 22.5 inch scale, in those days prior to reverb and stomp boxes.
Give a listen at www.jerrybyrd-fanclub.com/
I dunno that the "ease of slant" argument carries a shed of weight with me, as Mr Google (sorry, I'm five hundred miles from my living room and its Dobro and Stratoclone) tells me that the instruments I already play slants on are 24.25 (MSA, Zum) and 25.5 (Dobro, Stratoclone) .
Ray, arguments pointing to what Jerry Byrd did are, frankly, silly. That's a bar none shall hit.
Jerry, like Mike Auldridge on Dobro (sorry, but while I think I can admit some bias, I still say when it comes to tone, Mike's THE MAN on Dobro), Buddy on pedal steel, Knopfler on Strat, Albert Collins on Tele - blues division, et al, is a singularity.
I ain't no Jerry Byrd, and I'm never gonna sound like him and neither will the rest of us.
If longer strings give better sustain, and it sounds like better tone generally, I may lean towards 25.5-26, since I've played 25.5 for 34 years.
But my buddy just said his obtaining the guitar funds just got pushed back, so my plans will wait. Grrrrr
Ray, arguments pointing to what Jerry Byrd did are, frankly, silly. That's a bar none shall hit.
Jerry, like Mike Auldridge on Dobro (sorry, but while I think I can admit some bias, I still say when it comes to tone, Mike's THE MAN on Dobro), Buddy on pedal steel, Knopfler on Strat, Albert Collins on Tele - blues division, et al, is a singularity.
I ain't no Jerry Byrd, and I'm never gonna sound like him and neither will the rest of us.
If longer strings give better sustain, and it sounds like better tone generally, I may lean towards 25.5-26, since I've played 25.5 for 34 years.
But my buddy just said his obtaining the guitar funds just got pushed back, so my plans will wait. Grrrrr
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects
More amps than guitars, and not many effects
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Ray Montee
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- Joined: 7 Jul 1999 12:01 am
- Location: Portland, Oregon (deceased)
- Contact:
I truly hate to disagree...................
LANE......with all due respect, I'll have to disagree with you on this one.
I wasn't promoting JERRY BYRD's expertise as you mistakenly suggest, but rather "THE SOUND" he was able to produce and the accuracy that he routinely demonstrated on those little "TOY STEEL GUITARS.
The SLANT's that are possible on the 22.5 inch Rickenbacher down below the 5th fret and the accuracy that can be maintained on an upward slide toward the twelfth fret is unmatched, in my humble opinion.
Branding the Ric a "little TOY GUITAR" was what I personally found unpallatable particularly when so many are playing $4,500 pedal guitars displaying a definite lack of accuracy in slanting the bar.
THANKS for your clarification tho'.
I wasn't promoting JERRY BYRD's expertise as you mistakenly suggest, but rather "THE SOUND" he was able to produce and the accuracy that he routinely demonstrated on those little "TOY STEEL GUITARS.
The SLANT's that are possible on the 22.5 inch Rickenbacher down below the 5th fret and the accuracy that can be maintained on an upward slide toward the twelfth fret is unmatched, in my humble opinion.
Branding the Ric a "little TOY GUITAR" was what I personally found unpallatable particularly when so many are playing $4,500 pedal guitars displaying a definite lack of accuracy in slanting the bar.
THANKS for your clarification tho'.
On that, I agree. Perhaps the frypan is a little unassuming and humble, but Jerry and Scotty did/do cool stuff with 'em.
Personally, I try not to disparage any guitar, because it's the player that gets the job done.
I may try to find a short-scale guitar to noodle on before I decide on the long scale that I lean towards.
Is it easy to find 25.5 or 26 fretboards
Personally, I try not to disparage any guitar, because it's the player that gets the job done.
I may try to find a short-scale guitar to noodle on before I decide on the long scale that I lean towards.
Is it easy to find 25.5 or 26 fretboards
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects
More amps than guitars, and not many effects
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Jim Mitchell
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chris ivey
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Barry Beattie
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- Location: Queensland, Australia
How about the relationship between
scale length
and
string gauge/string tension?
ie: in the guitar world, the 009 or 010 high-E commonly ysed for a 25.5" Strat or Tele doesn't quite feel right (IMHO) for a 24" Jaguar (where 011 or 012's "feel" better). I'm still trying to work out a way of having as many plain/unwound strings on my Fender 8 - the largest gauge is 022 (024 seems to sound "funny")
scale length
and
string gauge/string tension?
ie: in the guitar world, the 009 or 010 high-E commonly ysed for a 25.5" Strat or Tele doesn't quite feel right (IMHO) for a 24" Jaguar (where 011 or 012's "feel" better). I'm still trying to work out a way of having as many plain/unwound strings on my Fender 8 - the largest gauge is 022 (024 seems to sound "funny")