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Topic: Seeking guitar tone from a PSG |
Jerry Overstreet
From:
Louisville Ky
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Posted 6 Dec 2011 5:38 pm |
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Tone wise, how would you go about making a pedal steel sound more like a standard 6 string spanish guitar? Say, Tele, Strat or LP or others? Are the construction differences that great?
This is an 8 string pedal steel. [I thought I had a 6 string pedal steel deal in the works but it seems to have evaporated.]
I can put a 6 or 7 string reg. guitar pickup on it and tune it EADGBE, open D, E, G etc., but I don't know if it will have that guitar tone. I'm looking at making this a blues/rock machine v the classic pedal steel guitar sound.
When I plug it into the preamp/fx patches that I use with reg guitar, it sounds thin and weak while the Tele etc. sounds nice and robust.
Right now, I have a low G# string that I can easily tune down to a guitar E, but it doesn't sound the same.
So, realizing I'm in for an extended period of experimenting I thought some of you may have gone through this already and would have some ideas about it.
Thanks in advance. JO. |
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Dave Grafe
From:
Hudson River Valley NY
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Posted 6 Dec 2011 6:31 pm
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It's not the pickup or the tuning that will get you what you are after but the voicings, attack and blocking, which are all about the right hand on the steel. On a 6-string guitar you block, or damp, strings by releasing tension with the left hand but that mostly makes noises on the steel that you don't want.
If you are intent on this endeavor listen to what Robert Randolph does to emulate Hendrix, bearing in mind that it is his overdrive pedals and musical choices that produce that sound and not the pickup or construction of the guitar.
Most folks who want to get telecaster sounds just use a telecaster, and this includes many highly accomplished steel players. On the other hand, you're not gonna get a tele to sound all that much like a pedal steel, although Danny Gatton took me to school long, long ago doing just that.... |
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Jerry Overstreet
From:
Louisville Ky
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Posted 6 Dec 2011 6:52 pm
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Well Thanks for your input Dave. I do feel though that a big part of the sound comes from the design, construction and the way the pickups are wound. FI, just strumming across the strings has a different timbre than a standard guitar.
I have some Tele and Strat style guitars so I can do that when I want to, but I have my reasons for wanting to do this.
I'm not necessarily looking for hard overdriven sounds in particular ala RR although they could be used from time to time.
Again, plugging my steels into my guitar settings or my guitars into my steel settings are very, very different so there has to be something more than technique.
This particular Emmons pup is a little less than 13K ohms, whereas the Squier Tele pups have nearly half the resistance individually or maybe one fourth when combined.
I may end up putting a fretted board on it ala Zane King, and experimenting with some tunings and pickups. |
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Brint Hannay
From:
Maryland, USA
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Posted 6 Dec 2011 8:32 pm
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| This may be simplistic, but some of the steel work I've heard that sounded most like a Tele or Strat was played on a Fender steel. Sneaky Pete got some very guitar-like tones--not meaning overdrive or fuzz. Of course, his Fender was customized quite a bit electronically. I have a bootleg live recording of the Flying Burrito Brothers playing, I think, at the Avalon Ballroom in San Francisco on which, the first few times I listened to it, I wondered who the bender Tele player was along with Pete, till I eventually realized all the lead instrument work was in fact only Pete. |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 6 Dec 2011 9:03 pm
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I have luck getting Tele-like sounds from my steel (using both E66 and TrueTones) by curling my ring finger under my right hand and banging the strings off the nail. This seriously modifies the attack. I think Tele pickers do this already. When I choose Pete/Albert licks, it sounds more like a Tele than a Tele guy playing steel licks sounds like a steel.
Nights that I'm in the mood to do this a lot, my ring fingernail sports a dark black streak from the steel wires.
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Bob Hoffnar
From:
Austin, Tx
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Posted 6 Dec 2011 9:48 pm
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Lane,
Cool trick ! That's how I get harmonics but when I do it like you said away from the harmonic nodes its gets a very cool tele type sound. Thanks !
For a great guitar type tone check out Ralph Mooney on the Waylon live CD. Or the seamless interplay between Burton and Moon on the slick sliding instrumental cd.
_________________
Bob |
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Bill Hatcher
From:
Atlanta Ga. USA
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Posted 6 Dec 2011 10:32 pm
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here is a cougar pedal steel i used to own. someone posted just about what you did about getting fenderish tones out of pedal guitar. i went down to my little recording set up and just played some things to try to capture the essence of the fender guitar and post it. thats been years ago, but i still had the mp3 on my computer. was able to get a decent sound.
use a lighter set of strings so you can get the snap. play in the key of E...the "peoples key" 
http://soundcloud.com/bill-hatcher/tele-steel
and some messing around on my 6 string psg just playing some blues licks.
http://soundcloud.com/bill-hatcher/6-st-pedal-steel
Last edited by Bill Hatcher on 6 Dec 2011 10:40 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 6 Dec 2011 10:39 pm
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Yeah, if you do it between pickup and changer, it sounds even more so. I find on the MSA, it gets more tele-like without turning thin and brittle. The Zum is a little finicky about it
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Dave Grafe
From:
Hudson River Valley NY
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Posted 7 Dec 2011 12:19 am
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| Quote: |
| just strumming across the strings has a different timbre than a standard guitar |
Yes, the steel guitar is built for optimum sustain, the pickups are more powerful, there are no frets for the hands to work with or the strings to rattle against, and the strings themselves are considerably heavier for the pitches they are tuned to, heavy enough in fact to severely bend - or more likely break - a traditional guitar neck. The inability to use the left hand to modify tone and sustain and the use of thumb and finger picks rather than a flat pick also changes sound quality and how one uses the strings to make music.
These are all differences that you can easily hear, but strumming a Les Paul with both PAF pickups up full and a Strat with the PU switch in the magic "Phased" position are also entirely different in timbre and some players would argue that these instruments are best used for different tasks as well, although they are far more similar to each other in construction and playing technique than they are to any sort of steel guitar.
My point is that with proper technique you can achieve some similarity in sound but these are totally different instruments intended for totally different uses and expecting to achieve the same effect with them both is like trying to make a cello sound like a harp or a french horn sound like a trombone, even though they are similar in construction and design.
Please understand that I am NOT trying to disuade you from experimenting with your ideas at all, it's an interesting excercise and one that promises some limited success but they were never intended to achieve the same musical purpose. As you have identified yourself as a capable six-string player I am simply suggesting that you use the the guitar to get guitar sounds and the steel to sound like, well, a steel guitar, rather than using too much of your time trying to make orange juice from a box of apples. |
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Karlis Abolins
From:
(near) Seattle, WA, USA
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Lane Gray
From:
Topeka, KS
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Posted 7 Dec 2011 5:23 am
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Dave, I'll stop swiping Albert Lee/Pete Anderson licks when them gitpickers stop trying to swipe ours.
Just sayin'.
(once spent an enjoyable few minutes trading fours with a Tele picker: him playing steel licks, me playing Tele licks, but I'm a goofball)
_________________
2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects |
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Jerry Overstreet
From:
Louisville Ky
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Posted 7 Dec 2011 7:07 am
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| Dave Grafe wrote: |
| As you have identified yourself as a capable six-string player I am simply suggesting that you use the the guitar to get guitar sounds and the steel to sound like, well, a steel guitar, rather than using too much of your time trying to make orange juice from a box of apples. |
Yeah, but what would be the fun in that? 
As I stated earlier, I have my reasons for wanting to do it. I believe that the differences can be accounted for to a large degree and I intend to pursue the idea.
I only used tele as a reference to standard 6 string guitar. I could just as easily have said Gretsch, Guild, Gibson etc. Chet Atkins or Albert Lee.
Anyway, thanks to everybody for your ideas and input. Still looking to hear more comments.
Thanks for the examples Karlis and Bill. Interesting idea there Karlis. Cool.
Bill do you remember what tuning you were using on the Cougar? Anything else you can tell me about those guitars? I thought I had one of them lined up, but it didn't materialize. That's some nice pickin' you're doing there. |
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James Mayer
From:
back in Portland Oregon, USA (via Arkansas and London, UK)
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Posted 7 Dec 2011 9:28 am
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This seems like a good excuse to post my experimental steel. When I had Jim Flynn (Lone Star Steel Guitars) build this, I was playing in a band where I had four instruments on stage, including two lap steels in different tunings. I was less proficient at steel than the other two and wanted a lightweight instrument to get lap steel sounds, guitar sounds and pedal steel sounds in one lightweight package. I thought that, because it came with strat pickups, it would sound like more like a lap steel. Nope, it sounds like a pedal steel. I guess it's the maple, the changer, etc. I've come to embrace it, however. It sounds great.
I've since removed the original pickups and turned it into a stereo guitar monster. I don't run it in "stereo" but effect each signal different and sum to mono at or before the amp. If you look, you'll notice the pickups are split-blade hum-cancelling pickups made by Lindy Fralin. One of the toggles switches between two modes:
- VERTICAL: each pickup has it's own output
- HORIZONTAL: treble and bass strings are split and sent to separate outputs.
Both modes are run in series for hum-cancelling. The chicken-head knob blends between the two signals. One of the toggles is a phase switch so I can avoid phasing problems when plugging it into both of inputs of my Deluxe Reverb. The other toggle reverses the outputs, so I can assign either signal to either output. Round that out with tone controls and sliding pickups and I can get a lot of sounds.
That volume pedal is a Fender volume/tone reissue. I've wired it so it has a stereo volume pot and a stereo blender. Two signals go in, and swiveling the top will blend between them. The system works really well. An example is to leave the bridge pickup clean and sounding like a PSG. Roll the bridge pickup tone all the way down and add a lot of delay. At the end of a phrase, slowly swivel the foot and fade from clean to effected, grab an ebow and go to town.
It's tuned BEG#BEG# so playing with octaves and the split treble/bass string outputs can produce some interesting new sounds.
I have as much or more fun with these types of projects as I do playing. Meaning....I still haven't learned to actually play the instrument well. You can see my orange Aria hollowbody in the background in the process of a similar stereo experiment.
Last edited by James Mayer on 7 Dec 2011 10:47 am; edited 2 times in total |
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Jerry Overstreet
From:
Louisville Ky
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Posted 7 Dec 2011 10:09 am
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Cool James. Thanks  |
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Dave Grafe
From:
Hudson River Valley NY
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Posted 7 Dec 2011 12:01 pm
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By all means go for it, Lane and Jerry, the worst that can happen is that you will increase the bounds of the instrument and your own musicianship simultaneously, no harm can possibly come of that, and sharing your lessons learned informs us all 
Many of us have spent more time than we can remember covering keyboard and horn lines when there was no "steel guitar part" to the song, as well as playing "rythm guitar" under the guitar solos. Sometimes it's the only way a steeler can get or keep a gig! |
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Brian McGaughey
From:
Orcas Island, WA USA
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Posted 7 Dec 2011 12:06 pm
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| Bob Hoffnar wrote: |
| For a great guitar type tone check out Ralph Mooney on the Waylon live CD. |
+1
Moon's note choices and tone is total Tele... |
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Jerry Overstreet
From:
Louisville Ky
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Posted 7 Dec 2011 12:26 pm
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Thanks for all the tips. Bob, I don't have the Waylon recording you suggest, but I'll be looking for it.
Brint, yes I'm totally familiar with Sneaky Pete's sound and style. I always assumed a big part of that sound was the Fender....of course Pete.... his complement of electronics. In an interview, he stated that he had to cover the guitar parts with his bands and so had to come up with different ideas. He states that his sound and style were not conventional pedal steel, but that's the way it worked out for him.
I've got a double 10 pedal steel and I don't plan to do anything out of the ordinary with that guitar. I just thought this little S-8 Emmons might be a good guitar for trying something different. |
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Bob Carlucci
From:
Candor, New York, USA
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Posted 7 Dec 2011 4:27 pm
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| Bill Hatcher wrote: |
here is a cougar pedal steel i used to own. someone posted just about what you did about getting fenderish tones out of pedal guitar. i went down to my little recording set up and just played some things to try to capture the essence of the fender guitar and post it. thats been years ago, but i still had the mp3 on my computer. was able to get a decent sound.
use a lighter set of strings so you can get the snap. play in the key of E...the "peoples key"
http://soundcloud.com/bill-hatcher/tele-steel
and some messing around on my 6 string psg just playing some blues licks.
http://soundcloud.com/bill-hatcher/6-st-pedal-steel |
WOW... Very cool Bill!!!! What a great sound!
_________________
I'm over the hill and hittin'rocks on the way down!
no gear list for me.. you don't have the time...... |
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Jerry Overstreet
From:
Louisville Ky
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Posted 8 Dec 2011 5:01 pm
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One of the things that peaked my interest in the idea was years of listening to Sneaky Pete's self titled LP Shiloh 1979. At least 2 cuts on it have what must undoubtedly be standard lead guitar though no credits are given for lead. Only rhythm guitar by Greg Harris.
Sleepy Lagoon and Oklahoma Stomp are the 2 in question. If any of you have this recording would you please cue it up and give it a listen. |
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David Mason
From:
Cambridge, MD, USA
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Posted 8 Dec 2011 8:27 pm
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Wow, Mr. Hatcher - when's the CD coming out?
Now, that is fairly "tele" sounding. I have often said that I started playing steel guitar because of Duane Allman, as he would have had to if he lived longer - I had just beat everything out of open-and-standard-tuned electric guitars with a slide that I could. And that Les Paul/Marshall/hifi speakers combination is a very different tone than the Telecaster. (Duane Allman used a 50-watt no-master Marshall into Altec-Lansings, Santana did the first two albums at least with a Les Paul, not a SG, JBL speakers and Not-Mesa Boogie head, yet).
A typical Telecaster into a Fender Twin has treble and "presence" to burn, presence being the highs above treble. It's usually the speaker that saves your eardrums, as most speakers have a frequency response that falls off a cliff between 2K and 2.5K.
The Les Paul sound I wanted to emulate was the creamy one - think Duane's solo on "Stormy Monday" with his fingers, or his standard-tuned slide solo after the bass solo on Mountain Jam." It's almost like the anti-Tele tone. Shorter scale length, mahogany neck, I think the biggest "treble reduction" come from the humbucking pickups. Compared to the Tele/Twin rig, there's drastically less treble & presence, but a whole lot of upper midrange, peaking around 1.6K and a good thump in the lower mids but - you have to keep the bass down or it's really muddy.
Most people, myself included, don't want to carry a rack parametric or graphic equalizer around in a rig, but you almost have to fiddle with one to "see" where certain frequencies are and what the changing balances do. Allman's tone has been compared to a harmonica or saxophone, and most any good tenor saxophonist of the "romantic" style (no free-jazz beeps or squeaks) would use this the tonal range on a ballad, the great harmonica players like Pat Ramsey & Jason Ricci are right there (in their lower range) - and it's called the "cello tone" for a very good reason! Listen to a cello....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfqQCV9ERi4&feature=related
I had to take the approach that I wanted the steel I owned to do it (2001 Carter S10 C6th), I can't afford the money or time to commission a mahogany PSG with 10-string custom PAF pickups. Fortunately, the pickups on normal modern steels put out lots of mids, and high and bass, so you just have to cut some frequencies. There are three things working here, the signal's EQ coming out of the instrument, what the amp does with it, and the EQ from speakers. Without knowing what you're starting with it's hard say what you should do - think mids.... I use a Hilton pedal that Keith built for me the "old" style with tone and volume controls, I keep them both all the way to the left. I usually use a SWR bass amp head, with 2 12" Black Widow 112E speakers.
And of course learn guitar solos, try to play them correctly regarding note duration at the right pitch. I mean, get off a note quick and get to the next one quick, as though they were fretted. I use much lighter bars than most people.
This guy does a good job of a "singing" midrange even with a scary backup band! (maybe because of it?)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CIsa7e1RM_8&feature=related |
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Joshua Grange
From:
Los Angeles, California
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Posted 11 Dec 2011 8:28 pm
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| Fender pedal steel. Nothing sounds like them. |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 11 Dec 2011 11:13 pm
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I've had good results using Rex Blattenberger's ceramic tone bar. I got one from him at the ISGC in St. Louis this year. It changes the tone and envelope it a way that makes it sound more like an electric guitar.
_________________
-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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Bill Hatcher
From:
Atlanta Ga. USA
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Jerry Overstreet
From:
Louisville Ky
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Posted 16 Dec 2011 6:53 pm
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| Yessir. Exactly what I'm looking for. Been watching that over and again. I would like to find out more about that, what the pedals/knees are doing etc. That's great stuff and I wanna hear more of it please |
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