Thoughts on playing pedals and non-pedals?

[Eric Davidson]

I currently play non-pedal, and am pretty new to it. I know there are some folks out there that play both pedals and non, and some things Ive read and heard lead me to believe that some feel a certain amount of loyalty to non-pedaling. I would just like to hear some thoughts of why some may feel that way. Additionally, Im also interested in thoughts about playing both pedal and non-pedal steel. I myself have wondered about getting a pedal set-up someday but am a little hesitant for a few reasons. Just curious, thanks!

[S.M. Johnson]

If you're going to be a SERIOUS STUDENT of STEEL GUITAR, you should be thinking in terms of getting the very best eduction available to you.

By learning the non-pedal steel first, the original format, you will HAVE to by NECESSITY, learn the basics of what it's all about. If you wanted a pickup, I don't believe you'd purchase one with an 18 speed transmission to begin with.

While learning that first guitar and basic tuning, slants, picking, tone and volume control useage....you will be laying the foundation for all of your FUTURE playing. TRUST ME!

At some point, you'll realize that it sure would be nice to have some additional melody notes at this particular point in the song you're playing. BINGO! Now, you have some insight as to what a pedal or two or three is going to do for you.

As you progress in all of your music, a pedal steel guitar will expand your musical capabilities to the maximum. Different pedal set-ups can provide different tunings and playing styles and thus more variety in YOUR playing.

If I were you, I'd go for a 6-7 string lap steel of good quality and playability. Don't rate the guitar on the number of strings it has but the sound and tone. Get the best instruction possible and practice..........with intensity. GOOD LUCK!

[Bill Hatcher]

make your focus the music....all the rest of the stuff will fall into place.

[Tom Gray]

I'm with Bill. While it's true that learning non-pedal technique is a great foundation for playing pedal steel, that doesn't mean that you have to go in that direction. I for one have never yet had that bingo moment where I felt I needed to step on a pedal. That sound is just not in the music I want to make. But it might be in yours. There's more than one path. Follow the music.

[Mike Neer]

I have played pedal steel in the past (not very well) and I am not going to play it again, but it is important for me to have those sounds at my fingertips. I love the pedal steel guitar and its sound and I've worked hard to incorporate as much of it into my arsenal as possible. I've even recently come up with a tuning that is closer to anything I've ever used for that 60s sound.

The music tells me what to play--I try not force it. Some styles just beg for that pedal steel sound.

[Bob Russell]

I'll throw in with Bill and Tom - you should let the music be your guide. That having been said, I'm choosing to not play pedals yet because I think I need to focus completely on what my hands have to do. But that's just me. Someday, I want to get an old Fender and try to cop some Ralph Mooney licks, but I can't help but believe that better bar control and picking would be beneficial before trying to go there.

[John Allison]

It's definitely going to depend on what style of music you want to play. While you can play pretty decent swing stuff on E9 Pedal steel, you're mostly using the pedals to put your instrument into a tuning that resembles the original non-pedal tunings and you're better off with a good 8-string non-pedal, eventually a double- or triple neck. When it comes to early honky-tonk country, it's pretty hard to get the licks you want with non-pedal in any tuning. It can be done, but it's not as full or flowing. If you really want more modern Nashville country, nothing will do except E9 pedal.

I do agree with the idea of concentrating on non-pedal for really learning fundamental technique. Good blocking, bar work and intonation are going to be important no matter what and it'll give you a chance to develop a clear understanding of the theory involved.

[Eric Davidson]

Thanks everyone, thats all great advice and much appreciated!

Im really happy with my D-8 Pro and have been practicing my slants and string pulling and right-hand technique. I really love the non-pedal sound, especially the early stuff, and for now I think I'll just keep working on that. Again, thanks for the advice and sharing your thoughts, reminds me again why I love this forum.

[Jerome Hawkes]

i have found out my feeble brain can not make the switch very well between the pedal / non-pedal - and this from someone who plays different instruments (mando/banjo/gtr,etc) in different tunings with no problems.

on steel though, if i stay on say, non-pedal and then jump over to pedal, its like my brain has been scrambled - it takes me a few weeks to get my head adjusted to either pedals/non.

my advice is along with the others - and i think non-pedal will help your pedal playing out more than pedal playing helps your non-pedal playing, as i say, completely different mindset.

[Kenneth Caine]

Jerome, I am curious about the mindset you are referring when switching between pedal/non-pedal. I have recently purchased a pedal steel after having played lap for about 2 years. The pedal is going to be E9th and the lap remaining at C6th.

I the mindset switch difficulty because of moving from C6 pedal to C6 non-pedal? If using one tuning on the pedal (E9) and a different one (C6) on the lap does it make it easier to transition?

I will be facing that same situation. Besides the pedals I also have differences in string spacing. I plan on trying to keep playing both poorly.

What do you 'switchers' think?

[Steve Lipsey]

I switched to lap steel from slide guitar because the band wanted more of a "country sound"....spent a few months in C6 doing slants to get the pedal feel, then "Nashville" beckoned and went all the way to pedal steel for "that sound"...(still played slide in another band, fretting behind the slide for fancy chords)

I found the theory of lap steel useful for pedal (harmonized 6ths, etc.), and right hand technique also (certainly way different from guitar, although slide helped prepare me somewhat).

But most of the practice is really different. If you have enough strings you can play more across the neck (like in pedal) rather than up and down it...but still way different.

Now that I switched over, I wanted not to lose the lap stuff, but C6 just didn't make sense to me with E9 on the other instrument (and open G on the guitar)...and then I discovered E13 (hi to lo G#,E,C#,B,G#,E,D,B) for 8 string lap, with the 6th tuning embedded in it, so all the C6 licks and chord forms worked just fine, but the E9 stuff also fell into place.

And the slants are all more obvious to me now...they just are "pedals"....(e.g., forward 6ths are same as B+C on pedal strings 4 & 6, reverse slant 6ths same as A+B on pedal strings 3 & 5)...and I switched from slide to lap in the other band, because it all just works now...

So there is one story....I guess everyone has to find their own way to building their personal mental landscape that will connect brain to instrument....

[Jerome Hawkes]

i think the mindset is different in that on the non-pedal, you are playing on TOP* of the instrument, where on the pedal you are playing (mainly) underneath. but its not just that simple. i dont see the tunings as the problem, as they are related a lot closer than what they first appear to a beginner.

this is off the top of my head regarding the question - not something i've tried to analyze.

a lot of it has to do with pre-hearing sounds and correlating the sound with the mechanical movement needed - the pedal steel is a very "automatic" reflex driven instrument, your brain thinks a sound and you have 2 separate tasks - on top and below - it really has to be 1 thought/1 movement, this is a hard skill to learn and is very repetition based over many years. you are also dealing with moving 2 and 3 note lines that often dont go in the direction your ear says they do - (ie to get a higher note, you often move down the fretboard). so, when you start switching your brain is confused (rightly so).

on non-pedal, you are free of all that, you can concentrate on your inner ear and devote complete mental attention to the music. i find A LOT of my pedal playing is rote licks and home based playing, sticking to 3rds and 6ths - dont dare get out of the box or you're dead kind of thinking - while on the non-pedal - i'll usually follow the "musical line" anywhere it wants to go.

*on TOP doesnt just mean the obvious moving the bar around and slanting, there is way more right hand technique to develop on non-pedal, how you choose to phrase a line, hold a note, slide, etc.

[Eric Davidson]

So Steve are you saying that E13 gives you a E9 sort of sound for your lap steel? Is that the tuning Don Helms used? And one last question, when you guys are talking about 6ths etc, I am lost, are there some materials out there that would help with working on theory that anyone would recommend?

[Eric Davidson]

Just saw Mike Neer's Lap Steelin' Blog. Pretty awesome! That will provide some good info I bet!

[Bob Hickish]

Jerome, I am curious about the mindset you are referring when switching between pedal/non-pedal. I have recently purchased a pedal steel after having played lap for about 2 years. The pedal is going to be E9th and the lap remaining at C6th.

I the mindset switch difficulty because of moving from C6 pedal to C6 non-pedal? If using one tuning on the pedal (E9) and a different one (C6) on the lap does it make it easier to transition?

I will be facing that same situation. Besides the pedals I also have differences in string spacing. I plan on trying to keep playing both poorly.

What do you 'switchers' think?

Kenneth
IMO you will find E9th pedal to contain all of the C6th patterns -- Maybe this will help you see the similarities .

C6th has the 1-4-5 plus relative minors in a two or three fret pattern -- if you look at the E9th you will see by lowering the E’s to Eb you have a B6th -- and you can play all your non-pedal tunes from that position --- by adding a pedal or lever movement you will be able to fill in the cord structure in all the same moves ---

Don’t know if this will make sense --- I guess i see the E9th pedal steel as an extension of a 6th tuning --

Just My opinion

[Steve Lipsey]

E13 even has the 6th tuning in it with no retuning....it is basically the E9 pedal steel with only G#, no F#, so you slide to get that 2-to-3 pedal move. It does have a C#, which is the pedal result of A pedal on the B string, and which gives you the relative minor chord in the tuning....a few other minor differences, but those are the key ones...

you get the "lonesome wail" lick (1 on top, 2-to-3 on the bottom) by just sliding into the root from below in the harmonized 6th scale (most melodies are played not as single notes but as harmonized 6th or 3rd double stops)

But you only get the real pedal steel sound from a pedal steel. Anything else is just trying to imitate it, and you are better off playing a lap steel like a lap steel - no problem being influenced by the pedal sound, but the lap steel has a sound and technique all its own...e.g., way more playing linearly along the neck instead of vertically across the neck, much more sliding around all over, not just where there is a pedal....

Lots of youtube stuff and materials available in the forum store....depends a bit on what style you want (e.g., Cindy Cashdollar for Western Swing)...

I'm sure that the other, more experienced forum folks can point you in the right direction for materials. I found it very helpful to get a teacher to get me going....ask around at music stores and someone will know who the right guy is...

[Tom Grosz]

About 6 months before I purchased a pedal steel, I set up my 6 string lap steel to mimic the D - high E strings on E9 pedal steel. This also allowed me to retune to A6 or C6 fairly easily. I worked hard at learning slants and also string pulls that a PSG does (primarily A & B pedals), as well as other fundamentals.

Now I usually take a single neck PSG out when I play, but if I want to play a song with THAT sound, I just use A&B to get an A6, or drop my E's for B6. The voicings I learned on my 6-string lap steel are all there!
Here is a thread about that

As discussed, anything you are learning on a lap steel will be worth it if you decide to venture there. They are both fun and different instruments (Steve pointed that out!).

Have fun with the music either way!

[Les Anderson]

I play non-pedal exclusively. With that being said however, I have a Remington D10 that has no pedals but, because of the twenty strings at my disposal and the learned ability to pull strings, I can almost duplicate a pedal steel sound on the Remington. If I want the old time country sound (Don Helms. or Little Roy Wiggins), I use my D8.

As others have recommended in this thread, start with a non-pedal to learn the basic and extended chords, how to do slants and how to play with different tunings.

I would like to add here, ninety-eight percent of the audience that you play in front of will have no idea whether or not you are playing a pedal steel, a non-pedal or if there are more chords you could be throwing into your playing; or, the difference between a pedal steel and a non-pedal steel. Play what you enjoy and don't be pushed into something just because others claim it to be better.

[Eric Davidson]

Thanks Les, I think you make a good point. Sadly, most people my age don't even know what a steel guitar is, much less whether its a pedal steel or not. My friends all keep calling my steel a pedal steel (I guess because of the volume pedal?) but Ive just stopped correcting them

[Kay Das]

Both uniquely beautiful instruments, different playing techniques.

Some examples of the same tune played on both.

http://soundcloud.com/kay-das/blue-bayou

http://soundcloud.com/kay-das/01-harvest-moon

Kay

[Kay Das]

Both uniquely beautiful instruments, different playing techniques.

Some examples of the same tune played on both.

http://soundcloud.com/kay-das/blue-bayou

http://soundcloud.com/kay-das/01-harvest-moon

Kay

[Kay Das]

Just came across a pedal steel plus dobro version of "Waltz Across Texas" by Bobbe Seymour. Look out for it. I cannot reproduce it here as I do not own the copyright.

I think it is absolutely gorgeous, love that "middle eight".

Kay

[Robbie Daniels]

I first learned to play non-pedal, of course with the exception of the Harland Brothers there was no pedal but I degress, in the mid 40's at the Honolulu Conservatory of Music in Oakland, CA. I can still remember my first teacher, Harold Probst. Learning non-pedal was invaluable for me in later branching off to pedal steel when pedals became more prevelant. I still play non and pedal steels. In fact, I have 6 stringers, 10 stringers and 12 stringers that I play and I have really never had a problem distinguishing between the different string setup whether it be pedal or non-pedal. I just like the steel guitar. I tried learning the standard guitar from the great DeWitt Montgomery in San Francisco, but I didn't last to long at that venture because I always try to play standard like a steel and it just doesn't work. After about a year and a half at the Holonulu Conservatory of Music I took lessons on a double neck Epiphone Zypher 8 string steel in Richmond, CA from Danny Boyd who at the time was playing a double neck Bigsby, but I was too young to get in the bars to watch him except when the door would open once in a while at the Garden Inn in Hayward, CA. Well I have gone too far. Does anyone out there remember any of the things I have mentioned?

[Eugene Cole]

Im really happy with my D-8 Pro and have been practicing my slants and string pulling and right-hand technique. I really love the non-pedal sound, especially the early stuff, and for now I think I'll just keep working on that. Again, thanks for the advice and sharing your thoughts, reminds me again why I love this forum.

It sounds like you are on a good path. Many of the raises that a Pedal Steel can do can be done with string pulls and slants on a non-pedal Steel. However to concurrently raise and lower strings on a non-pedal takes a level of skill that many never realize.

As many have said and will say again; the music will dictate the style. I tune my Dobro like the C6 neck on a PSG and ther is plenty of roon to play both accross and up and down the neck. Whomever made the comment about PSG'd lending them selves to playing across the neck instead of up and down te neck; that point really resonated with me.

Another difference is that Non-Pedal players tend to run with lower string tension because string pulls hurt with higher tension strings. Some non-pedal players e.g. Bluegrass Resophonic players run high tension strings and only have an academic concept of what a string pull is. But they also ever play without picks and primarily stay with major chords with individual passing notes (there are many exceptions to this but for illustrative purposes I shall genralize).

[Tom Franke]

Well I have gone too far. Does anyone out there remember any of the things I have mentioned?

Robbie, please don't think you can ever say too much about the history of this great instrument or the players who have made it so special. I'm sure I'm not the only forum member who can never read enough about how we got to this point in time where the instrument(s) themselves are mature in design.

I think you raise an interesting point about your experiences trying to play standard guitar. It's probably natural that we draw analogies to what we already know but it seems like its important to learn the uniqueness of each instrument. Maybe that's the key to shifting between pedals and laps. I'm too new at both to claim any expertise, but I will keep this lesson in mind as I continue.