Volume Pedal: Choosing Between Standard and Low Profile

Mark Eaton · Posted 10 Nov 2011 12:40 pm

I am going to purchase a new volume pedal, most likely a Hilton. I am trying to decide between a standard height and low profile.

If you go on Keith's website, he provides dimensions for both profiles but not the "why?" I did try to e-mail him some time ago with the question but maybe it got caught up in a spam filter or something as I never received a reply.

Searched the archives here for an existing thread on the subject but lost patience after awhile after not coming up with any results.

One thing I have heard is that if one were to use a volume pedal for both steel and "regular" electric guitar (played standing up) that low profile would be the preferred unit. This is something I will possibly be doing, but I primarily want the volume pedal to be the right fit for steel playing.

That said, over the years it seems to me that low profile pedals come up for sale relatively often, and I'm speculating that some players relaize that for whatever reason, it isn't their cup of tea and they go back to standard profile.

What say you?
_________________
Mark

Steve Lipsey · From: Portland, Oregon, USA

I've read that they are for tall folks who need more room between them and the pedal...

Richard Sinkler · From: aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana

I have a regular height Goodrich LDR2 (mainly my backup now) and a Hilton low profile. I bought a Williams a few years ago and my right knee hit too high up the right knee levers and were really uncomfortable. The low profile moved my knee down and cured the problem. I use the Goodrich if I am playing in tennis shoes rather than my cowboy boots. The low profile makes my foot angle up more and it hurts my ankle. The Goodrich takes care of that.
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Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, Recording King Professional Dobro, NV400, NV112,Ibanez Gio guitar, Epiphone SG Special (open D slide guitar) . Playing for 55 years and still counting.

Lane Gray · From: Topeka, KS

You see mostly low profiles because only short-shinned folks ever really feel comfortable with the full-height ones. With a standard profile, I feel the rods brush my thigh. I don't like that, and to raise the back of the guitar puts the tendons in my left wrist in a bind.
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2 pedal steels, a lapStrat, and an 8-string Dobro (and 3 ukes)
More amps than guitars, and not many effects

Dave Beaty · From: Mesa, Arizona, USA

Hi Mark,
I happened to see your post just as I walked into the house from work this evening. You pose an interesting question for many players contemplating the whys and wherefores of volume pedals. In order to discuss the differences between what have been traditionally called “high” and “low” pedals, one really needs to first define whether we are discussing old, traditional pot pedals (and some of the very early “light” pedals), or, the newer generation of electronic pedals.

Historically, the early pedals were, indeed made in a truly “high” and “low” version, and in fact, the high version was indeed “taller” than low version – which prompts the discussion regarding longer and shorter legs, brushing the undercarriage of the steel with a knee, etc. BUT, often overlooked is the fact that the axle in older “high” pedals was/is positioned farther forward on the pedal than the “low” models. Disregarding the actual height factor, and more important to many players, is that having the axle/pivot point at a different point directly influences the RANGE of MOTION of the players ankle for the same angle range of the movable top/treadle. As a result, the two types of pedals have a different feel. Think of it as a children’s teeter-totter. The older “high” pedals are more like a normal teeter-totter with the pivot point in the middle.
The older “low” pedals are more like a teeter-totter with axle moved back toward the back, or your heel on the pedal. But also note that as you move the axle farther and farther back (toward the heel), you get a leverage effect. Depending upon how far back the axle is placed, of course you no longer have a one to one relationship, that is, if you move the back of the pedal one degree, the front of the pedal moves more than one degree…….

Fast forward to the new generation pedals. Because they do not have large pots in them, there is no need to build a pedal any higher than the older “low” pedals. As a result, there is very little difference (a few millimeters) difference in what are still called “low” or “high” model. This varies by manufacturer between their two models. In the case of Telonics pedals, one pedal covers both conditions; the axle can be moved to either position to suit the player. The difference in resultant height is only a few millimeters.

So with the newer pedals, the aspect of pedal height is no longer applicable with respect to players having longer or shorter legs. The only significant difference between the two axle positions in new pedals is therefore the axle placement. This axle placement becomes important to the player with regard to his or her comfort with respect to his or her preferred/comfortable range of motion.
This has generally boiled down to whether the player is younger or older, and whether they prefer to wear shoes lower (or boots) with higher heels.

There is a generally accepted common range of motion for the ankle which the majority of players find to be most comfortable. It is therefore necessary to choose a pedal or axle position which will correspond to that range of motion for the type of heel that you prefer to wear while playing, since the heel controls the angle of your ankle when your shoe is in a given position. People generally want their foot to be comfortable when the pedal is at full “heel-down”/when the pedal is at minimum volume. AND, they want their foot to feel comfortable as they continue the pedal’s range of motion on through to full “toe-down”/maximum volume position.

In general we find that people who wear boots to play in (or women with heels) prefer the axle to be in the rearward position – which is commonly still called a “high” pedal.
A higher boot or shoe heel raises the back of the player’s foot, and placing the axle toward the back of the pedal drops the treadle a corresponding amount so the foot is not “pointed” as far forward. Unless this is done, the ankle may have to be rotated uncomfortably (for some people) forward when the toe is fully down. As an observation, some players have remarked that the leverage of such a pedal can feel a bit “touchier” simply because of the leverage change when the axle is moved toward the rear of the pedal.

Players who wear relatively flat soled shoes (or people who play barefoot), typically prefer having the axle/pivot point near the center of the pedal. This type of pedal is still called a “high” pedal through force of habit or convention. We have also found that standing 6-string guitar players, bass players, fiddlers, etc, typically prefer pedals with the axle placed near the center of the pedal (they also prefer to have a friction lock/clutch so they can easily move their foot on and off the pedal without accidentally change the setting, or have the pedal change due to the stage vibration from woofers or stomping – C6th players also often prefer this type of clutch so they can move their foot on and off the volume pedal when using two feet on their guitar pedals).

There are certainly more axle considerations, but I hope this information is of some assistance to you. Once you get past "high" or "low", you are actually just scratching the surface of important considerations for a professional volume/swell control pedal. If you would like to have more information, just PM your email address and I will be glad to send previously written information on the subject tomorrow when I go into the laboratories where I work.

Remember to pick clean no matter what.
All the best! I gotta go nite-nite now.
Dave

Tim Victor · From: North Carolina, USA

Great stuff, Dave. Thanks!!

Randy Brown · From: Knoxville, Tennessee, USA

I own both the Hilton Low Profile and Standard Height pedals. I am 6'1" tall and originally thought the Low Profile would be best for me to fit underneath my guitar, but I actually prefer the standard pedal very strongly.

If you take the measurements of both the full ON and full OFF positions and in the middle, you'll find that it doesn't really gain you that much room under your steel. The front of the two pedals are the same height, and the back of the pedals are about half inch difference when fully ON, but only a quarter inch difference in the OFF position. In you're average playing position of approximately half way on, you're really just gaining about 3/8".

The reason I prefer the standard is that the pivot point on the low-profile pedal is further back which to me makes the pedal travel feel awkward. Volume pedal control is more difficult on the low-profile for me personally. This of course is a matter of preference so your mileage may vary. (also I wear flat shoes, not boots, which may make a difference)

I wound up getting a lift kit to raise my steel an inch and then the volume pedal height difference is trivial.

If you're considering the low-profile to keep your knee from hitting the bottom of the guitar, then your're probably tall enough that you should have your entire steel guitar raised up to promote better ergonomics of your arms and wrists as well anyway.

Richard Sinkler · From: aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana

Tony Glassman · From: The Great Northwest

I use the "low" pedal, but I like the "treadle" motion of the forward placed axle better.Unfortunately, I have longer legs and wear boots. The rear axle is better for boot-players as your heel never rises and all the pedal motion is done at the forefoot.

So for me, it's a trade off with the "low-profile" winning. I hate the cramped feeling of having my right thigh rub against the undercarriage. I dislike "fat-backs" rear aprons for the same reason.

I'm glad there are both options.

Randy Brown · From: Knoxville, Tennessee, USA

Richard,

This is a nice comparison of the Goodrich with the Hilton, and the difference is remarkable between those pedals. But my statement involved the Hilton standard vs low-profile. If you look at them side by side, you'll see much less compelling difference. I suspect that if you compared the Goodrich vs Hilton standard the comparison would be just as convincing.

Also check out the difference in the pivot point between the two pedals. You can see in the photos how much further back the low-profile's axle is. As Dave Beaty has mentioned, the position of the pivot can significantly affect the feel of the pedal. Some may like it, some may not.

At any rate, I should point out that the quality of both Hilton pedals is excellent, and Keith provides top-notch customer support, should you ever run into a problem.

Greg Cutshaw · From: Corry, PA, USA

I did a comparison between the Hilton and Goodrich 120 pedals and measured the differences in on a on heights and throw angles:

http://www.gregcutshaw.com/Hilton/Hilton.html

Different guitars can have a big difference in thickness between the top deck and the lowest part of the undercarriage. Two guitars with identical height as measured at the top of strings or deck might have an inch or more difference in undercarriage heights.

My Goodrich 120 pedal which was fine with my Sho-Bud ProII D-10 is way too high to use with anything but bare feet or moccasins when I play my MSA Legend.

Greg

Richard Sinkler · From: aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana

Randy... Point well taken, that's the reason for my disclaimer. Can't really see much point in Hilton offering the 2 different pedals when the difference is so slight (see below for text from Keith's site). But in Crowbear's link, you can also see the difference with a Goodrich pot pedal and what I assume to be a standard Hilton pedal. Still quite a difference. And, I think someone making a switch to a Hilton is probably not switching from another Hilton. Probably a Goodrich (or some other) pot pedal which makes my comparison a little more likely scenario.

The pivot point between my 2 pedals is not even close to being an issue. Until it was mentioned, I had no idea they were different. Neither pedal's pivot point really affects how far my knee gets raised when pressing down or releasing the pedal.

And as was mentioned, the bottom of guitars CAN be different heights while the tops are the same. But, when I ordered the Williams, Bill wanted to know the height to the bottom of my current guitar (the Carter) and built it accordingly. I have no explanation as to why the Willy was so uncomfortable on the right knee levers except maybe they have less distance between the levers right at the top. I angled the levers out, but at the top, they are still pretty much the same distance.

Mark Eaton · Posted 11 Nov 2011 12:22 pm

Man, some great replies here guys - thanks for all your help!

I'm still not a hundred percent clear on which way to go between the low and the standard - I'm finding out in reading through the posts that this isn't the most cut and dried subject today on the Foum.

Here's the scenario:

1. My pedal steel is a GFI Ultra S-10 Keyless. It is a bit too low for me and I am probably going to contact GFI and go for the one inch longer than standard legs they have available, I think the two inches longer than standard will be overkill. I'm 6'2" with Levi's inseam of 34".

4. When I play out (not on pedal steel - still too much of a hack) on regular guitar, dobro, some lap steel, I like wearing heeled boots, but I sure don't wear them practicing at home in a pair of shorts and tee shirt. That would look pretty bizarre if the doorbell rang and I had to answer it. Winking

So the vast majority of woodshedding time will be done in sandals, sneakers, of socks. If I'm ready for prime time at some point to sit down behind the steel in public for a few tunes, I might have the heeled boots on, but once again - I'm still in the woodshed at this point. But I don't want to buy one Hilton pedal at this point then have to fork out the dough for the other one in say two years because it would be the better fit - I want this to be the "lifer" pedal.

5. I've been saving my pennies for a Hilton. Can't afford the dough to go all the way up price-wise to a Telonics nor can I justify the purchase. Have used Goodrich pot pedals in the past and think they're just fine but I'd rather spend the extra money for a Hilton and not have to dink around with the sooner-or-later pot and string replacement.
_________________
Mark

Dave Beaty · From: Mesa, Arizona, USA

Mark, the height of the older "light" pedals I referred to in my earlier post is clearly shown by Richard's picture. Thanks Richard.
I gigged with a Goodrich light pedal just like that before switching to Hilton pedals. I first used the early Hilton with the large, permanently attached Motorola power supply for a few years, and then switched to the newer one with the removable power supply. Keith makes a good pedal. Speaking as an older picker, we, as a steel community, have never enjoyed such a variety of good equipment to choose from.
Historically, "high" pedals have been higher than low pedals. That has all changed now as evidenced by the informative posts above.

For this reason, Telonics will no longer refer to pedals as "HIGH" or "LOW". Due the overwhelming preferences shown by boot/high heel wearers and relatively flat sole wearers, all future Telonics literature will refer to the relative position of axle placement as:

"Boot Pivot" or "Standard Pivot"

Stacy and I just shot a few pictures to illustrate the relative height differences in the Telonics pedals.

Mark this is a great forum for informative exchanges.
B0B, we sure appreciate all you do! Thank you, Dave

Richard Sinkler · From: aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana

Richard Sinkler · From: aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana

Dave, I will admit, I tried a Telonics pedal at a gig (my friend let me borrow his - actually it was a loaner from you or John while my friends pedal was being repaired)and set it to the Hilton taper for my pedal and didn't care for it all that much and didn't think it truly matched the taper of my pedal. But, with that said, I think I could have made it work just fine with trying other tapers, adjustments etc... just spending more time with it (I only used it for 1 60 minute set). It really is a superbly built pedal (of course so is the Hilton and Goodrich). My major obstacle with it is the price point. It wasn't $200 better than my Hilton. If money was no object to me, I would probably have one. And since my friend's pedal was in to you for repair, they also fail like anyone else's pedals.

I don't want anyone to take that to mean you shouldn't consider the Telonics pedal. It is a first class piece of equipment. I wish I could afford one of their preamps. It looks like a real winner for sure.
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Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, Recording King Professional Dobro, NV400, NV112,Ibanez Gio guitar, Epiphone SG Special (open D slide guitar) . Playing for 55 years and still counting.

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