When tuning RKR, the note turns around and starts back up!

[William Johnson]

Hello All,

Has anyone seen this before? I just put the RKR back on my BMI (2D# > D/C#), and I am having trouble tuning this lever. If I keep lowering (by turning the hex nut) the D# through the D and just into the C#, the note turns around and starts back to the D#. Yes, it sure seems to be doing this. I worked on it all day today. Is this possible or am I nuts??? The only thing I can think of is that somehow the 'raise' finger is being pulled into the action due to the 2nd finger (changer) becoming un-balanced somehow or it's a gremlin . . .

Any ideas?

Thanks,

[Paul Sutherland]

You may need more travel on the lower lever. Do you also raise the same string? If so, you may need more slack put into the raise. A further possibility is that the return spring for that string is too tight.

This is a very common problem and something that can almost always be cured with proper adjustment. I'll let others take it from here, as I no longer play an all pull guitar.

[Andy Jones]

My '74 MSA D-10 Classic does the same thing except on the RKL.It lowers the 6th string a whole tone.It never did it until I lubed it well with Tri-Flow.

Andy

[Brint Hannay]

Paul's theory is my first thought. I'd try backing off the nylon tuner until there's no change when you press the lever (and also do this to any other pull on that same string), then find where at the cross shaft (not at the changer) the lever's action is being physically stopped, and adjust the stop further away from the moving part to allow a little more throw, then try tuning the change(s) with the nylon nut(s). If it works and you have any change(s) on that lever on other string(s), they'll need to be re-tuned at the changer also.

[John Gilman]

FWIW I had a similar problem as well. MSA S-10. Turned out that the effective leverage between the top lower hole on the changer and the lower return spring axis was enough to cause the raise to move a little bit on a whole tone lower. The solution in my case was to move the rod to the bottom lower hole on the changer. Since it's closer to the return spring axis, there is less leverage available and the changer stays in place. Lessening the tension on the lower return spring would have the same effect. The thing is, that on a lot of changers, the only thing holding tension on the raise side is the tension of the string. If there's not a lot of string tension, then pulling against a tough lower return spring can cause a bit of raise to occur.

My experience; of course YMMV

Gil

[William Johnson]

Yes, my RKL also raises the 2D# > E . So my RKR lowers the 2D# > D/C#, and my RKL raises the 2D# > E . I need to note that I am having trouble getting enough travel to lower the 2D# > C# ! I am in the 2nd string changer slot or hole closest to the PU or next to the raises. My BMI only has 2 raises and 2 lowers. The 2nd string extreme lower slot (towards the floor) is open.

So based on the replies, IF my tuning hex nuts have a little slack in them, I should try moving down to the lowest changer slot and/or using a slightly weaker return spring on the 2nd string, correct?

BTW: I am getting ready to buy another steel, so if anyone is interested in my black BMI (3+4) with Wallace TrueTone for $1000 + S&H please let me know. I'll get it listed soon.

Thanks,

billy

[mike nolan]

William,

What gauge string do you have on your 2nd string? A .015 is the most common gauge for the 2nd. If that is what is on there, it should be fine. If not moving to a slightly heavier string than what you have can do the trick....

[John Gilman]

<snip>
So based on the replies, IF my tuning hex nuts have a little slack in them, I should try moving down to the lowest changer slot and/or using a slightly weaker return spring on the 2nd string, correct?
<snip>

Short answer: yes.

Independent of slack in the tuning nuts, if you move the (2nd)D#->C# lower rod to the changer hole closest to the lower return spring, you will shorten the effective lever between the rod and the spring mounting point. This will help keep the changer from doing a phantom raise. It may or may not solve your problem, depending on the string tension and a gazillion other dynamics in the changer, but it might help.

Gil

[Shorty Rogers]

I had an early BMI and experienced a similar problem. On that guitar, it was a design issue. If you don't solve it by trying the fixes already posted, check out the style of the changer. On my BMI which I got in 1977 or so, the radius of the changer was a little larger than most of todays guitars and the axle was very thin. Each side of the individual changer was flanked by a fiber or nylon washer. The diameter of the washer was somewhat smaller than that of the changer and an extreme pull on the 2nd string actually caused the changer to twist a little, thus raising the pitch right at the end of the pull. You could see it once you knew to look for it and adding a bigger washer seemed to help. Eventually, I went to .017 dia. string and that took care of it.
If memory serves, I helped another steeler with this same early-BMI problem about that same time.

[William Johnson]

Shorty,

You may be correct with my case also. I have taken apart my changer a while back, and I do have what appears to be small diameter fiber washer. It makes sense that a larger diameter washer would offer additional support from a twisting torque action. What washers would you recommend and where is a good source?

My 2nd string is a .015 from the GHS stainless steel E9 string set. So, one path may be to increase the gauge from .015 to a .017. I'll look into that also.

It's somewhat interesting to me that my early BMI actually has great tone. I may even go to the point of saying that it's the best sounding steel I have ever owned including my ZUM and a Lashley II. Please note that I said tone! Also understand that I am a fan of single coil PU's. Having said that, the down side of my BMI has been it's pedal/lever feel and adjustment freedom, as they often feel a little stiff. When I addressed stiffness, I sometimes ran into string pull limitations due to travel in which I resolved over time. Not trying to be too negative about this issue, I must say that my BMI is simple in design and very easy to understand and setup. I think the BMI is an excellent PSG for gigging and again, it's tone is awesome if you prefer a single coil tone that will cut through stage volume. It has a sweet bite in the vein of the classic Nashville E9 steelers from the 60's on.

Again, what is a good source for fiber or syn-ethic washers suitable for a PSG changer? Does anyone happen to know the shaft diameter on the early BMI changers? If my memory serves me well, it's ~ 1/8" in diameter. You know, I may contact Larry at BMI and ask if the newer changers will fit my early BMI! I know he has a changer listed in spare parts web page.

Anyways, I will look into these suggestions and get back with progress reports.

This is not BS, but I think this Forum is the most generous and helpful forum I have ever been a member of. It's members seem to all have a sincere willingness to help others. Based on the younger musicians and their music I am around, I am sure that PSG is gaining popularity in more and more genres of music. It's not just a Country Music instrument anymore. Playing styles maybe different, but it's a pedal steel guitar. That has to be good, as long as its country roots are maintained as well. The members of this forum are playing a huge part in spreading the attributes of the modern pedal steel guitar to new generations of musicians. The PSG is without doubt has the most unique sound and versatility, and maybe not challenged by other modern instruments.

Sorry about rambling on so . . .

Sincere thanks for everyone's help.

billy

[Jim Palenscar]

Actually some of the time it is necessary to use the longer leverage points to keep the raise from occurring as you get deeper into the lowering. As in- use the hole for the lower that is furthest away from the changer axle rather than going the other way. As it turns out, sometimes using the faster/shorter pull causes too much tension on the raise finger and it begins to follow the lowering finger away from the stop plate. I have also had some success decreasing the tension on the lower return spring either by adjusting those that can be or in the case of BMI, Carter, early MSA, etc. stretching it just a titch in cases where I'm unable to get the required lower. Basically I just mess around until it happens - or give up if get too exasperated ~

[John Billings]

I'd use bronze shim washers from McMaster Carr (sp?).

[William Johnson]

Well, this is what I tried:

With ALL my strings removed and just a new .016 installed for the 2nd string and using only the RKR 2D# > D/C# pull. 1st: Changed 2S to a .016 from .015 with no improvement. I do not have a .017, but I do have a .018 I'll try if it'll hold the tension.

2nd: Then, I moved the RKR lower pull rod to the lowest changer hole (next to the return spring), and still was not able to reach the C# (440A).

I have not replaced the washers in the changer as I hoping to avoid dropping the changer. Are many changer raise and lower fingers interlinked using a pop rivet? It would seem that it would be easy to either have the pop rivet too tight or too loose, especially over time.

Other suggestions I may be missing? What I have left to try is going to a .017 or .018 and installing a wider flat washer in the changer. The ones I have now are ~ 5/16" to 3/8" in diameter and ~ 1/32" to 1/16" thick.

Let me get back to it.

Thanks,
billy

[William Johnson]

Well, this is getting challenging! I just . .

1. All strings removed except a new .016 for the 2D# in place of a .015.
2. Removed all other pulls related to the 2D#.
3. Backed completely off the RKR cross bar stop screw so it has NO influence on the 2D# string.
2. Tuned it open to D# with my Peterson II (E9 stored tuning).
3. Removed the return spring.
4. Therefore the 2D# should drop to it's max lowest pitch as the lower finger is fully extended, correct? In other words, nothing other than the 2nd string changer finger limitations (finger travel range) itself can be effecting the max lowest pitch. If that is correct, the 2nd string hex tuning nut adjustment can not be expected to go lower than that max lowest pitch! Correct?
5. The 2nd string max lowest pitch is slightly sharper than the desired C# drop from D#! Therefore the 2nd string hex tuning nut can not bring the C# into range. Impossible, because the finger itself is limiting its max lowest pitch. Agree?
5. Recapping, I tuned 2D# to A440 with NO pulls or adjustable stops linked to that string. Therefore, only the changer 2nd finger can influence its pitch range, (i.e., D# to C# pitch range). Then I removed the return spring, and the pitch dropped to almost C# (slightly sharper). Therefore, I can not expect to be able to tune-in the 2D# > C# pull!

If y'all agree, how do I resolve this? I am beginning to think that MY BMI was not designed to do a full step drop on the RKR or something has changed in my changer's 2nd finger, limiting its max travel!

What should I try next?

I have emailed BMI and waiting on a reply now. (BTW: It's not Larry at BMI but Don. Sorry.)

Still scratching my head,

billy

[mike nolan]

At this point, it seems to be narrowed down to:

A design flaw in the changer.
A wear related issue with the changer.
An obstruction somewhere limiting the movement of the changer finger.

If you are going to disassemble the changer, you could see if all of the fingers have the same range of movement. If the 2nd string changer finger seems to have limited movement, you could swap it for a finger with no pulls.... if you have one.

I had a Sho~Bud that wouldn't make some changes.... turned out that the hole through the body for the changer was too small.... the fingers hit the body, which restricted their movement. I had to slightly enlarge the hole.... and everything worked fine.

There is still the .017 gauge test....

[Jim Kennedy]

I had the same problem on my Shobud S10. When I tore the changer down it was obvious that the fingers were worn. The mating surfaces were worn, and the rivet in the finger was actually getting loose. John Coop assured me that this was a fairly common problem with Shobuds. The finger starts to lower, binds, and then starts to raise. New fingers were the ticket and my guitar now plays great. If a good cleaning and lube, and adjusting doesn't solve the problem, swap with a finger that does not get raised or lowered and see if that fixes the problem.

[Olie Eshleman]

This is probably a hugely stupid question, not knowing enough about your guitar or BMI's in general. Is there a split screw on that string? It would certainly stop the string from going any lower than wherever it was set.

This sounds like a very frustrating problem, best of luck with it!
Curious what fixes it...

Edited to add: I see now, no split screws. Seemed worth a shot.

[William Johnson]

Thanks for all the help.

This BMI does not have split screws.

When I had the changer apart a few months back, there was some lateral play in the fingers when assembled on it's rotating shaft. I understand that you must have some clearance in the axial and radial axis, but it seemed a little excessive, but maybe not. It worked fine and I have just attempted to add the RKR back on the guitar. It would seem to me that the close distance and steep angle of the pull rods to the changer would be problematic in general on many PSGs.

I will closely and determine if the changer hole in the body has adequate clearance today. I will look into taking the changer apart again ASAP.

Does anyone know of a source for new changers other than the original manufacturer? Has anyone actually replaced the OEM changer for another manufacturer's changer? I understand it could be a huge can of worms, if even possible.

Again thanks.

[Tony Glassman]

I've had a similar problems on modern guitars which sometimes turns out to be due to an overzealous "raise helper" spring.

The spring if adjusted incorrectly can make actually make raising easier than lowering despite pulling the changer at the lower bar, at some point during the changers excursion.

If you have a helper spring on the 2nd string (D#->E), try releasing some its tension or removing it altogether.

[William Johnson]

No, I do not have a raise helper, only a changer return spring.

Thx.
billy

[Shorty Rogers]

If the .016 gets close, the .017 should get there. One other thing to check is that the rod is not binding at the top and bottom of the finger hole. On long pulls, the diameter of the hole occasionally is not sufficient to accommodate the rod as the angle of the hole changes and pinches the rod. You can correct this by either widening the hole slightly top and bottom, or bending the threaded end of the pull rod up slightly, so that rod does not bind as it passes through the hole. I assume you have observed the top of the changer to see if it is twisting a little to the side at the bottom of the pull due to the washer issues.