The Steel Guitar Forum

http://www.unitedstatesartists.org/proj ... tor_guitar

If everyone on this forum pledged $5 or even $2 it would go pretty far towards Rob's goal.

With all due respect to both Andy & Rob, I take strong exception to this sort of public plea for funds for what amounts to a private education for Rob.
If Rob wants to learn jazz, he can stock up on CD's of Miles, Monk & 'Trane and cop lines and changes from the masters, just like everyone else has done since the advent of recorded music, in any genre.
Rob is a professional musician (& an excellent one at that) with a very decent career and it seems if he needs to expand his musical sphere into the realm of jazz he has all the tools that he needs already
to get there without begging the public to send him to school under the guize of expanding the role of resonator.

I have seen this type of thing on facebook & myspace where some young guy begs funds to send him to africa or india to learn some aspect of their music to enhance his own personal voice, but in my estimation it comes down to plenty "hutspah" (or Chutzpah) on his part, especially so in these difficult financial times where people are struggling to fill their gas tanks or buy milk for their babies.
On the other hand maybe everyone should
send me 5$ so I can go to Dallas and study with Reece.
Just my 2 cents, no offense intended.

No offense taken. Your point of view is certainly fair, Ron. I'm not sure how I feel about it ... probably somewhere in the middle.

These sort of funding projects are becoming much more common in the visual/performance arts. As government funding for the arts gets gutted, new creative methods to fund projects/scholarships/etc. need to be developed.

I think I'll pledge Rob some money, he's a fantastic player and I'd like to help him expand his horizons so I can benefit by listening to the results.

I can understand someone not feeling they want to support a request like this, but I don't understand this level of rancor about it. I don't think there's anything wrong with someone asking for private funds for a project like this - there's no chutzpah involved. People can either support it or not, and efforts like this aren't going to deprive anybody's car of gas or babies of milk - that is a complete red herring.

Support for the arts is and has always been largely at the discretion of private people to support or not support it - both emotionally and financially. Even many well-known and established but independent artists are not sufficiently financially independent to simply take an extended 'sabbatical' from regular paying jobs to focus on new ideas and approaches. This is not 'begging' - it's a simple request, take it or leave it.

I think the issue here is whether one supports this particular request or not. My opinion.

While I feel a little less comfortable with this approach after some reflection, I can see both sides of the equation. Funding for the arts is an age old dilemma and artists have had patrons since Mozart and probably since the first guy hunted dinner in exchange for a cool painting on his cave. Mr. Ickes isn't asking anyone who can't afford it to contribute though his perks for doing so are more limited in comparison to some other artists who've taken this approach. Even Jazz guitar great Jim Hall offers a tiered participation plan on his website.

In the classical world, the artist/master approach is the norm. The great cellist Bernard Greenhouse (who died this past week at 95) was already a renowned artist when he got a grant to spend a year studying with Pablo Casals. It boosted him to a whole new artistic level and made his career. In jazz, people would get better by totally absorbing the music on the bandstand - it was all around them but today, 52 St. doesn't exist and it certainly is a lot harder to keep learning and growing artistically for a budding jazzer - especially one who plays a non-traditional instrument. The NEA is dying and there aren't many avenues beyond the kickstarter type funding options.

On the other hand, implying that one guy getting lessons moves the instrument farther is a rather lame argument. It's an interesting notion. I'm still processing how I feel about it.

I have a few friends who have funded CDs through www.kickstarter.com. An interesting concept where supporters pledge money to fund the project. The project is only funded (and the pledges turned into donations) when the total pledges hit the fundraising goal. I've managed to get a few CDs and a wonderful recipe for authentic Italian lasagne as part of the deal.

That said, I think a number of folks can get a good start on playing jazz on steel by tracking down a copy of Bebop Lap Steel Guitar...

I guess I don't write all that well. I did not say that anyone would be deprived of gas or milk, only said that to make a point regarding asking for donations in difficult times.

When a group of relative unknowns raise money for a CD, or a small town dance group or stage group,or local symphony etc asks for donations that is one thing, but when a well known musician is asking for donations to further his personal knowledge that seems a bit much.

Violin is not easily associated with Jazz but plenty of people have excelled in the field without asking for funds for study.
I don't recall Bela Fleck asking for donations to expand the realm of Banjo.

I strikes me as a lack of dedication to the art form (in this case Jazz) that it takes donations to "further the instrument"... it's as if Rob wants to play jazz but doesn't want to struggle & pay the dues to achieve success.
That being said- if you want to send Rob money go ahead, I wouldn't criticize anyone for it, but I personally think it is extremely tacky.

I can't fault anyone for doing what they have to do in this business, as long as it's not illegal. Just think about it: Rob is an excellent musician in the Bluegrass field, probably not making a lot of money in the first place (I know I'm being presumptuous) and he's looking to make even less money by learning how to play Jazz. It's nice to know someone is following a similar trajectory to my own path--finding less listeners. I think Rob should seriously look into finding some grant money. There are a lot of foundations out there.

I think Rob would be better off studying composition, maybe with someone like Edgar Grana. The strongest element of a player like John Scofield is the fact that he is such a great writer. If he wants to further the reach of the dobro, he should be composing music for it.

I did not say that anyone would be deprived of gas or milk, only said that to make a point regarding asking for donations in difficult times.

The reason I picked you up on mentioning gas and babies' milk money was that they are completely irrelevant to the discussion and introduce psychologically 'loaded' ideas into the discussion. Terms like 'begging' are also psychologically 'loaded'. Classic red-herring argumentation technique.

Difficult times are precisely when support is most needed. Beyond this, it is up to people to decide what they think is 'worthy' of such support.

When a group of relative unknowns raise money for a CD, or a small town dance group or stage group,or local symphony etc asks for donations that is one thing, but when a well known musician is asking for donations to further his personal knowledge that seems a bit much.

OK - by your value system, amateur productions are 'worthy' of private support, whereas someone who perhaps really does have the potential to help move the instrument forward is being 'tacky' to ask for money to support such a new venture. Your privilege, but I think it's a bit sanctimonious.

I'm really not trying to convince anybody what they should think about this - I'm just responding to what is written. To me, this is not so different than someone applying for a government or foundation grant to support artistic development, except perhaps being more direct - it's a direct appeal to one's listeners/supporters. When you factor in the overhead of running government/foundation grant programs, I bet this direct funding approach probably costs a helluvalot less money overall, when all is said and done.

I strikes me as a lack of dedication to the art form (in this case Jazz) that it takes donations to "further the instrument"... it's as if Rob wants to play jazz but doesn't want to struggle & pay the dues to achieve success.

I honestly doubt that anybody playing at Rob's level isn't dedicated to music. I think your comment is more a reflection of an (IMO, widely held) idea that, somehow, 'serious' musicians and artists in general must be financially deprived to be properly 'dedicated'. So be it, but I don't think that attitude advances music at all.

As I do a little more research, I wind up more and more in Rob's corner. Very fine artists such as Bill Frisell are using this approach to fund projects.

http://www.unitedstatesartists.org/proj ... reat_flood

Yes, get with the times people...!
With the advancement of the internet has come new ways of doing things.
New tools for artists.

It's a very popular thing now, to solicit donations from fans, some of whom may be quite wealthy and can contribute a lot, and some who can only contribute a few bucks to an artist they love.

And it's no different than giving a buck to street busker. If you don't want to, then don't!

This is interesting in that Rob will presumably release a record bearing the fruits of his jazz mentorship.

I don't think it's tacky at all. I think it's wonderful that music that may never have been heard due to lack of funding can get a chance to be created and enjoyed, forever.

We are living in an exciting time, for sure. The wild west brought to you by the internet. Yeehaw.

The internet rules! Wish we would have had this when I was a kid, but I appreciate the opportunity to be a kid again.

The weirdest solicitation I have received yet was for the Honeyfund, which is a honeymoon registry. My wife was taken aback, but I told her we have to roll with the times.

sorry guys, but I agree with Ron Castle all the way. Larry

I read Rob's fund raising page carefully before my initial post.
Where is the expansion of boundaries? The only boundaries that seem to be expanded is Robs understanding of jazz. This is the real RED HERRING- expanding the boundaries of resonator! there are no boundaries on any instrument, only boundaries on players
Rob is using this money for his personal education and I find it appalling that a
musician of his caliber and standing would seek funds so he could better himself musically.
Rob has already released CD's containing
jazz tunes so whats new here?

I'd rather give a down and out stranger $5 for gas or food, then give Rob 5$ to further his education.

The examples or Jim Hall & Frisell were cited as being the same- not true, neither Hall or Frisell are raising funds for their personal enrichment, but for specific projects that they are already quite capable of accomplishing without further study.

As I said - just my opinion, no need to accuse me of RANCOR or floating RED HERRINGs- just my opinion, and if you want to send Rob Ickes money to further his education please do so, but I stand by my opinions on the matter.

If Rob wants to play jazz let him go the way of Stuff Smith, Venuti & Grapelli, and not ask the resonator community
for financial assistance, then he too, as Mike Neer says "can find LESS listeners'

folks - this happens ALL THE TIME in the arts field - painters, poets, writers, theatrical, classically trained musicians, playwriters, etc, etc - this is NOT some new age prospecting.

i am working with a theater group now doing a musical and EVERY single one of these "professional" actors, plus the theater is getting both local, state and federal grant money PLUS sponsorship by wealthy patons to pursue their chosen field, some may go into schools as a sort of requirement but they are NOT being supported through ticket sales or other for profit means...believe me - we're not talking big money, but its still patron funded.

one thing i have learned through years of working with arts based performers is the ones making a "living" have learned how to work the system, writing grants, networking with patrons - this is not a bad statement - its just the "way to survive"...

Ron, i think you're wrong on this point - Bela Fleck just did a banjo collaboration with some african banjo players and i can almost GUARANTEE this was a funded project, as are many professional jazz and classical projects. i know he's made the rounds of established arts centers and liberal universities that he would never be doing otherwise. now this is reaching a broader audience - but this isnt his "base" by a long shot.

Ron, you make a few good points, and so does everyone else. It is all about personal choice in the long run on the part of the solicitees and the solicitor. To give or not to give.... To solicit or not to solicit....

Ron, you make some good points and I don't know if Rob has looked into finding money from organizations or is only soliciting private donations. It comes down to a personal choice, I guess.

By the way, I'm studying jazz too and, if each member of the Forum would send me a buck, I could take a bunch of lessons and try to get really good...

Amen to that Jim, & while we're at it maybe I can get to study with Reece on someone elses dime.
'Nuff said, I bowing out of this discourse.

Either you do or either you don't.

I would urge those of you that find this offensive to go check out the missions statement for the website supporting Robs plea:
http://www.unitedstatesartists.org/miss ... ion_values

Then the history of this particular grant host, United States Art History:
http://www.unitedstatesartists.org/history

It's clear to me this is not about Rob Ickes stealing money from the mouths of babies and the homeless, but about keeping the arts alive in this country. Alive and well.

I agree with Ron 100% about boundaries being invented on any instrument. Well put Ron. Sometimes the descriptions of grants (and fine art) tend to be a bit... far reaching... in their scope. ( OK sometimes they are full of bulls@#$). But that shouldn't obscure the real Geist of the solicitation, which is about supporting fine artists in a time where popular culture grabs the lions share of money.

So what? He wants to study with some mentors and is finding a way to do it. He has a fire under his butt and is making it happen somehow. I'm glad it's a great musician giving money to other great musicians, and not just money being thrown away on some crappy Hollywood film, or IQ erasing pop-music. ( Just my opinion, of course...! )

I just don't understand the indignation aimed at such a plea. It must boil down to the individual and their particular position in life. I really don't think anyone is going to eschew putting food in their kids mouths in lieu of a donation to Rob.

I'm happy to see a forum where idle dollars are being put to use, helping what I consider to be 'good' music in this country.

I somehow have trouble imagining Buddy Emmons,Curly Chalker or Maurice Anderson using this approach to study music. Not that there is anything wrong with it.

I realize that soliciting funds through social networking has become the means de jour, and that many have been and are doing this....and IMO there is no right or wrong.....it is one's personal decision whether to support these things or not....it also appears to me that there is a fine line/gray area as to what is a "project" and what is personal betterment.....

If an artist or artists are asking for funds to put on a concert or produce a recording or a video, to my mind, that's a project....if an artist wants to be mentored and study with others, that's pretty much going to school.....

I've looked at both sides of this.....several times and as much as I'm trying to be liberal because I'm a fan......my gut cannot shake being uncomfortable with this.....

I realize that Rob is seeking the goal of acomplishment and to take his music on the resophonic guitar to new heights and expanded horizons.....I respect that.....and if he were to do this on his own, with his own perseverance....I would respect it even more.....

Personally, a donation to The Steel Guitar Forum takes presidence.....from me.....

I guess I don't really have a problem with it (and, as webmaster for www.steelguitarjazz.com, I'm lookin' for all the jazz players I can find, so one more is a good thing). I'm a little perplexed, though, by his statement that $3,700 will cover costs of two mentorships (Scofield and Grenedier) ("The budget includes mentor/artist fees as well as travel and associated costs.") So, it seems a little odd to me that John Scofield would say to a 12-time Dobro Player of the Year, "Sure you can come hang out and play with me, and I'll teach you stuff, but it's gonna cost you a grand...") I mean, I guess it's possible, but it just sounds odd...

After wading through the emotional reaction to this, I note that the primary rational objection to this is that this isn't a 'project with a tangible outcome, but instead a continuing education project. I think there is a prevailing attitude in this culture that one gets one's education at a young age, and from then on, "you're on your own." YMMV, but I think that is a pretty limiting view, and I think is changing rapidly as the world becomes less and less static. For someone who is highly motivated, I think highly focused training after one has been out there 'in the real world' for a while tends to pay off big time.

It's not just me that thinks this. If you're in the world of foundation/government grants, there are the usual grants to do research, develop new teaching methods, and so on, but there are also so-called 'training grants' to train in a new area. In the academic and private research world, there are also sabbaticals, which are generally intended to give time for concentrated focus on something either within one's purview or in a new area. In this world, it is generally considered good and even important to be able to bring new ideas and techniques from one area into another. Foundations and agencies tend to give training grants to those who seem, in their judgment, to be most likely to make an impact. A candidate's prior record plus a statement of what he or she intends to do generally dictates how this is judged.

On the objection to a mentoring fee - in the mainstream professional world, it is routinely expected that people don't do professional things for free. It's a mark of both pragmatism and professional respect. A serious mentorship takes time and focus, both from the mentee and mentor. Thus, I don't think it's unreasonable to have a fee for a serious mentorship. Nor do I think it is unreasonable that a serious professional artist ask for support for further training.

Now, I realize that a lot of artists live on the edge or even completely outside that world. That's fine, but I think one should not try to apply the standards of one world to another. Let me also say that $3700 for two mentorships like this (travel + expenses + professional fees) seems very moderate to me. A scientific/engineering training grant would generally be a lot more dinero.

I also think a direct funding route like this is generally quite efficient - foundations and agencies have a lot of overhead. If you can get a small-to-moderate amount of money like this and get the job done without involving them, what's the beef? You tell people what you want to do, and they decide for themselves whether or not they support the project. The bluegrass world has taken this type of independent approach over the last 40 years - they have their own organizations, awards, festivals, and culture, and they take care of their own. I think it's a good model for non-mainstream artists - frankly, I think other roots music styles could learn a helluvalot from them about how to sustain and grow their styles.

To be clear - my argument is not about this particular request or Rob. I'm not trying to change anybody's mind about whether or not to support this. If you don't think it's worthy - by your standards - you shouldn't support it. I'm responding to what I view as an emotional reaction that this is, somehow, an 'illegitimate approach' to fund this type of training.

My take.