The Steel Guitar Forum

Just needed to admit that in 'public'. Please carry on being all good and stuff while I continue to suck.

Been there, and I've written about it:

http://www.mikeneer.com/lapsteelin/2011 ... onfession/

If you look through the blog, you'll find a few posts that deal with the frustration of trying to learn how to play after playing guitar.

Damn mandolin was easier to learn then this little mutt.

Vibrato?!?? what the heck happened to my vibrato???

And there was this, too:

C6 for Dummies (guitarists)
http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=184102

Bob, I started on steel guitar at about age 13, with A6th tuning on an 8-string Fender.
I now play some, in all popular tunings.

Now, I'm starting Spanish guitar and it's much more difficult than I had anticipated.
My classical guitar seems awkward, after the sustaining ring made with the steel bar on the steel string.
Every note seems to sound like a "big thud".

My hope is to expand my knowledge of music theory and to become a more "rounded" musician.
Spanish style guitars are so ubiquitous compared to the steel guitar.

I won't jump yet. Great post there Mike. I dig me some theory (as long as it doesn't interfere with my playing). Think I can get C E G A C E on .056-.013 strings?

yeah - i though i knew music & chord theory until i attempted the C6 - the first 2 months were a big slap upside the head - i would get up from a 30min practice and my head would literally hurt from the concentration - i can get up to 45mins now.

the thing is to get to a point where you dont think too much, just play - its a trap - unless you're one of those people who likes math/mental puzzles. once you spend some time with it, its like duh...what was the big obstacle here...it makes total sense. THEN you go try a new tuning and BAM - you blow all that hard work - your brain cant separate the two.

Bob McElroy wrote:I won't jump yet. Great post there Mike. I dig me some theory (as long as it doesn't interfere with my playing). Think I can get C E G A C E on .056-.013 strings?

No. The bass strings are too heavy. You'll need something like this:

.015 .017 .022 .024 .030 .038

Like I mentioned earlier, I picked up mandolin a few years ago and it was the musical laxative I needed; on mando I had to stay present and mentally active because guitar muscle memory was no use. My ears got better and my mind has become ( I think) more
musical.

Fast forward to few months back where I revisited the music of Ry Cooder (my #1 slide and mando idol) and a tune called "Steel Guitar Heaven". Well, one thing led to another, and I saw on the Interwebs that lap steels can be had cheap, fast forward couple weeks back where I emailed Mr. Neer for some help and presto, I have me an SX lap steel.

I had really thought I'd get more mileage out of my beloved open G, but see that I am married to playing that with slide AND fingers. So, a new tuning is in order...and a few new strings.

I'm an advocate of B6 tuning as opposed to C6 for guitarists.

Low to high:

C6 - C-E-G-A-C-E
B6 - B-D#-F#-G#-B-D#

At first glance B6 might seem a lot more difficult until you tumble to the fact that the root of the major chord is on the 2nd string B

There has been a great deal for me to digest in this thread already. I need to think about application; which tuning/key fits in with tunes I know already.

I'm another one who came from standard guitar. I get asked about similarities between steel/spanish at gigs all the time by other guitarists.

I tell them that they are just different instruments. When you learn any new instrument, there are a whole slew of new techniques that need to be learned.

I jumped from guitar to steel after 31 years of playing guitar about 2 months ago or so. Have gigged out twice and surprisingly enough, didn't suck too bad. I practice a lot too.

Twayn, I hate to disagree with you, but IMO no way is B6 easier to acclimate to than C6. With B6 tuning, the only familiar string is B, whereas with C6 you have E, A and G. Recognition of those 3 strings goes a long way to helping you get out of position playing. If you don't know the inside strings on their own without using the B string as a reference, it will put a serious damper and your ability to improvise up and down the neck using those strings. You're putting too much emphasis on the root, whereas I find that position (root on second string) to be one of the least desirable. It's really not that hard to train yourself to remember string 2 as C.

I haven't heard you play (I'd like to, though), so I don't know if you rely on positions or not. If it works for you, that's great, but again, I disagree with the premise that it is more guitar friendly--there is much more to adjust to. I play E9 which has the same strings 2-4 and it throws me for a loop sometimes without another reference string.

My oldest son has been playing guitar since he was a teenager (and he has a mid-60s Gibson Les Paul that he bought new !)
Anyway, last year I gave him a lap steel that I built from Walnut, a nice sounding guitar. He had never tried to play a steel, and I just knew that he figured it wouldn't be a big deal. ( if the old man can play it, it can't be too hard !)

Well, you all know that he didn't get far before realizing that it wasn't that simple ! He still can't play a lick on it, but he is paying more attention to the old man's playing now

I’m not sure how to get in the middle of this conversation but , has any one thought of just playing in the pocket with C6th -- I think it might make sense to a 6 stringer .

Maybe Mr. Neer could touch on that .

Bob Hickish wrote:I’m not sure how to get in the middle of this conversation but , has any one thought of just playing in the pocket with C6th -- I think it might make sense to a 6 stringer .

Maybe Mr. Neer could touch on that .

I'm not Mr. Neer, but I'll take a stab at it

NOTE: I'm assuming C6 tuning, low to high: CEGACE

IMHO, there are 2 main "pockets" in C6th, the "root" or I chord pocket and the "subdominant/dominant" or IV-V chords pocket.

Root pocket:

In it's most basic form, the root pocket is simply the straight bar on the I chord, ex: for the key of D it's all the strings at the 2nd fret, which is the D6/Bm7 chord. A slightly more extended form of the root pocket adds the notes on the 2-3-4 strings a whole step up, and the notes on the 3-4-5 strings a whole step down.

Subdominant/Dominant pocket:

This pocket is the straight bar IV/V chord positions, 5 frets and 7 frets up from the root position, ex: key of D, the 7th and 9th frets.

I'm not Mr. Neer, either; that's my Dad.

Playing in positions like that is a good way to get started, but it is just the tip of the iceberg. I recommend (for whatever that's worth) learning to play up and down the neck using the inside strings. There are so many possibilities, it is mind-boggling. I attempted to show this in my Bebop book. I try to avoid playing in those positions because it just becomes so predictable.

Mike Neer wrote:Twayn, I hate to disagree with you, but IMO no way is B6 easier to acclimate to than C6.

If there was no disagreement there'd be no internet conversations at all I'll explain my reasoning further below. I should preface that my approach is for learning swing/jazz quickly.

With B6 tuning, the only familiar string is B, whereas with C6 you have E, A and G.

In B6 the only familiar string is the SECOND string which is the ROOT of the straight bar chord. This is the EXACT same 2nd string in the EXACT same PHYSICAL POSITION as on a standard tuned guitar. IF you are intimately familiar with all the notes on your B string (as most moderately skilled guitarists are) then there is absolutely NO translation necessary to find ALL of your major chords immediately.

IMO this is far more useful than having the non-root strings available in unfamiliar physical positions, i.e. the E A and G strings, none of which are a major chord root note in C6 nor are they in the same physical positions as on a standard tuned guitar.

ALSO, if you are an E9 PSG player, pushing your E lower lever will put you in B6 NOT C6. This is the concept behind the universal B6 tuning for 12 string PSG.

Recognition of those 3 strings goes a long way to helping you get out of position playing. If you don't know the inside strings on their own without using the B string as a reference, it will put a serious damper and your ability to improvise up and down the neck using those strings.

This is probably the crux of our different approaches. I do NOT advocate learning scales initially. I advocate learning chords and then learning the extended notes off those chords and then learning patterns that link chords together in common progressions. This is a far more musical way to learn a tuning than the classical method of notes and scales. Please understand, I do NOT advocate avoiding scales altogether, but I think they are best left to much later down the road. This is a sort of Charlie Christian approach (as far as I understand it!)

As for scales, I do advocate learning 2 harmonized 6ths major scale patterns, first the one on the 2nd/5th strings and after that the one on the 1st/4th strings. I also think it's worth knowing a major scale using the 4th and 3rd strings together. But even so, these are predicated on knowing where your I chord is by default.

However, even these 3 scale patterns are mainly useful as a way to get from one chord position to another, not as full improvisational structures in and of themselves, i.e. its useful to know a harmonized walkup pattern to get from the V chord to the I chord, etc.

You're putting too much emphasis on the root, whereas I find that position (root on second string) to be one of the least desirable. It's really not that hard to train yourself to remember string 2 as C.

It was for me Really, the 6th tuning did not open itself up to me till I switched from C6 to B6.

I haven't heard you play (I'd like to, though), so I don't know if you rely on positions or not.

Hah, the proof is in the pudding, right? No, I'm not in your league on steel (or jazz guitar) and yes, I rely quite heavily on position playing. In a swing/gypsy jazz context, it sounds right. I have 30 some odd years on standard guitar (B. of Music in classical guitar, lots of pop/avante/rock electric playing, etc.) I've been seriously working on swing/gypsy jazz for the past 1 1/2 years and my swing playing kinda sucks on standard guitar, but with the same amount of time on the B6 steel and only approaching it in a fairly lackadaisical manner my swing playing sounds perfectly fine, not virtuoso by any means, but acceptable.

So, when it comes to learning the steel guitar when coming from a moderately skilled standard tuned guitar background, then yes, I advocate B6 over C6. BUT, if someone is coming into it with a little or no guitar OR they don't know their 2nd string very well, then C6 is as good as B6 or A6 or G6, etc.

As always, YMMV.

I'm still going to have to respectfully disagree with you in every way. But at least you have good taste in music!

If you're looking to get a C6th type tuning out of strings gauged for open G, try using A6th tuning instead:

1. C#
2. A
3. F#
4. E
5. C#
6. A

From open G tuning, tune the first string down a half step, tune the second string down a whole step, tune the third string down a half step, and tune the fourth, fifth and sixth strings up a whole step.

If you really want C6th, just capo on the third fret and have at it.

Edited to reflect the proper third string - thanks, Steve!

Mike Neer wrote:I'm still going to have to respectfully disagree with you in every way. But at least you have good taste in music!

Still, what part of my approach do you not agree with? Just curious!

My main disagreement is over B6 being easier and I'll just give you one or two quick reasons why. You mentioned learning the harmonized 6ths; the layout for 6ths in C6 on strings 1 and 4 is exactly the same as strings 1 and 3 on the guitar. Anyone who plays guitar knows how to do this. So if his string 1 is tuned to D#, how long do you think it would be before a new player could play 6ths in the key of Bb? I think it would be difficult, whereas with C6, they'd already know where everything is. On strings 2 and 5 it would also be easy because the 5th string is an E. It wouldn't take long to figure the patterns if one knew the diatonic scales.

I really believe a player should learn the notes all over the neck on each string. There are many ways to play scales, or let's say "melodies." If you're struggling to figure what the note is on your D#, G# or F#, you're in trouble. I still think the value of the root on string 2 is being overemphasized--you've got to get out of that position. If you are in a minor key, you're relying on string 3 for the root. String 3 is easier to decipher tuned to A than G#, right?

It is not difficult to learn C6. I thought it was, too, for several years until I finally rolled up my sleeves and went to work. There are some very obvious parallels to guitar--the 6ths I mentioned above is just one.

As far as learning scales, yes, I do believe in learning the diatonic chords in conjunction with the scales. One can't learn to harmonize the scale without knowing how to play it.

Anyway, I didn't mean for this to be any more than a discussion, so I hope you can just recognize it as that. Everyone has a different capacity for learning things and some have a different method. I think it is best when the traditional route is exhausted before venturing into something a bit more unconventional.

As someone who has dealt w/being ADD my whole life, guitar came pretty easy when playing by ear (40 years of playing). I've been dancing around nonpedal steel for a number of years and reading the posts on site has been a great learning aid. But I have to say that the toughest part for me is realizing how important a background in music theory is to get to a higher level. That's where my attention deficit disorder gets me. I just can't concentrate enough to translate it all. I make most of my progress by listening and just playing. I'm hoping that eventually, the theory talk will sink in. I don't think I have enough years left to go back and formally learn it!

Bruce, the music theory is just an explanation for what sounds right! Always trust your ears first. I think in order to understand music theory, you should try to focus on learning one key (say the key of C). From there you can see all of the relationships to the C scale and once you are comfortable understanding the role each chord and scale tone plays, you can then begin to apply the same info to other keys. It's all the same info, just with different pitches and names.