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Topic: Early Emmons... worth looking at? |
Brandon Bankes
From:
Zanesville, Ohio
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Posted 3 Apr 2011 11:55 am |
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I recently came across an early 1960's D/10 Emmons pedal steel online and it looked to be in great condition. The guy was asking less than 2,000 for it so I called him up about it.
He said that he doesn't play and doesn't know anything about pedal steels. He took it in on trade (he owns a music store) Although, he did say it was professionally converted from a push pull to an all pull system. Everything else is original on it.
I'm wondering if this is a common thing to have a guitar redone like that. He says it looks almost brand new, that its basically a new all pull system in an original body. Thoughts?
I'm waiting on more pictures, but the guy lives pretty far away from me and I don't feel like wasting time or gas driving there if its not worth it.
What do you guys think? |
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Ken Metcalf
From:
San Antonio Texas USA
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Posted 3 Apr 2011 3:39 pm
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Two thumbs down from Austin.
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Adam Goodale
From:
Pflugerville, TX
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Posted 3 Apr 2011 3:46 pm
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Sounds like some ruined an awesome steel to me. If you get pics and it's actually a pushpull then jump on it. If it's been altered like he says, it's probably not worth messing with. Especially for 2 grand.
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 3 Apr 2011 3:49 pm Re: Early Emmons... worth looking at?
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| Brandon Bankes wrote: |
| Although, he did say it was professionally converted from a push pull to an all pull system. |
I doubt that any "professional" steel guitar mechanic would do that. I'd avoid this guitar.
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Brandon Bankes
From:
Zanesville, Ohio
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Posted 3 Apr 2011 5:01 pm hmm..
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Hmmmm.. well, I got some pictures and its definitely very nice, and.. not a push pull. Definitely an all pull guitar.
Didn't Bobby Seymour do these conversions at one time?
Uhhh... so.. I should... pass? (winces) 
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Tim Greene
From:
Athens Tennessee USA
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Posted 3 Apr 2011 5:14 pm
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| Brandon About 2 or 3 months ago a guy in Maryville Tn had a 1967 emmons d-10 p/p black on craigslist for 1400.Called him and he still had it but was considering a trade.(my heart was pumping by then plus I had the cash and it was Saturday and I was off plus it was a wraparound)He then tells me he had it converted to a all pull as someone told him he would never be able to get modern sounds/pulls from it. A guy had offered to trade him a single neck for it.I almost bought it but passed as push pull parts are costly.If the one your looking at is a 67 and black its the same one. Tim |
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John McGuire
From:
Swansea,Illinois, USA
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Posted 3 Apr 2011 7:27 pm
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| I think it is/was Clem Schmidt converting these. Do a search on Youtube as there was a video. |
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Frank Estes
From:
Huntsville, AL
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Posted 3 Apr 2011 7:49 pm
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Nope, that is not Clem is doing. His hybrid solution leaves the push-pull changer intact and adds an all-pull mechanism between the push-pull changer and the rods.
I seem to recall that Paul Franklin Sr. tried this conversion on a push-pull for his son many, many years ago and it ruined the tone of that guitar.
Most agree that doing this ruins the tone of those guitars. When this is done, you will see the end cut out just like a factory all-pull. |
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Doug Beaumier
From:
Northampton, MA
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Posted 3 Apr 2011 8:10 pm
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| Quote: |
| so.. I should... pass? |
I would pass... unless I was looking for an affordable D-10, and could get this at a very Low price. There's a good chance that the zing of a push/pull Emmons is gone, and the tone has been ruined. It's heartbreaking to see. It might be an "acceptable" all-pull tone though. If you're just looking for a "player guitar" to woodshed on and you don't care about the the loss of the original sound or the loss of Value... go for it. I just wouldn't pay too much for it.
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Jack Stanton
From:
Somewhere in the swamps of Jersey
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Posted 4 Apr 2011 3:54 am
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| Interesting that the guy who's selling it says he doesn't know anything about pedal steels but knows the difference between an all pull and a push pull..... |
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Jerry Erickson
From:
Atlanta,IL 61723
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Posted 4 Apr 2011 5:50 am
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| Duane Marrs used to do conversions on push pull guitars.Did he send you any shots of the underside, endplates, changer? |
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Brandon Bankes
From:
Zanesville, Ohio
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Posted 4 Apr 2011 6:07 am hmmm...
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Well guys I'm definitely gonna pass on this guitar. The guy keeps changing his story and I really don't trust him to be honest.
It looks nice, but if it sounds like mush then it makes no difference at all, obviously! Not worth getting mixed up with.
Thanks for your advice! |
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Doug Palmer
From:
Greensboro, North Carolina, USA
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Posted 4 Apr 2011 6:22 am ???
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Interesting guitar. Can't tell for sure but it looks like it has wooden necks. I have the only LeGrande with wooden necks I thought. Might be a P/P from the pedals. I'm confused. I'd like to see some pictures of the underside.
Doug
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Brandon Bankes
From:
Zanesville, Ohio
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Posted 4 Apr 2011 9:16 am
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He says its a 1964 model, all original parts, with wooden necks.
But, the undercarriage has been gutted and turned into an all pull. |
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Ryan Barwin
From:
Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
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Posted 4 Apr 2011 12:04 pm
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I wouldn't pass on it without seeing detailed photos of the undercarriage and endplate...it's impossible to know the extent that it's been gutted without seeing that...it may (possibly) be a decent sounding steel.
It's possible that the top half of the original changer fingers were somehow machined into all-pull bridge fingers, and riveted raise/lower fingers added. If this is the case, then it would likely still have a lot of the push-pull tone.
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www.pedalsteel.ca |
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Chris Lucker
From:
Los Angeles, California USA
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Posted 4 Apr 2011 12:14 pm
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| Brandon Bankes wrote: |
| He says its a 1964 model, all original parts, with wooden necks. |
So which one is it? He probably does not know how few of the twenty 1964 Emmons guitars had wood necks. I could be wrong, but I think only four were originally made that way. Numbers 7, 8, 10 and probably 9. I do not know about Number 11.
The one interesting thing is that the control panel is pretty close to what you would see on a Wraparound Bolt-on -- maybe a fret off -- but that is believable because the guitars were still one-at-a-time efforts.
But from what I can see the keyheads and pedals are not 1964. It does not look like it has 1964 endplates either. Better pics would allow me to see the endplates better, and the roller nut and the pedal shafts. Don't those keyheads look like they have open ended slots for the rollers?
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Chris Lucker
Red Bellies, Bigsbys and a lot of other guitars. |
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Randy Brown
From:
Knoxville, Tennessee, USA
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Posted 5 Apr 2011 6:23 am
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If this is the one in Maryville TN, then it is junk. I went over there and played it a few weeks ago. The undercarriage is a total mess with one knee lever mounted in a weird direction like someone had no idea what they were doing - there was no way you could use the lever as it is. And several of the pulls would not tune up (not enough travel, etc), the pedal action was terribly sloppy. The strings were extremely old, so perhaps a new set might help the tuning problems, but I still don't trust it.
Maybe if you are an Emmons guru and wanted something to rebuild, it might be worth half of what he was asking, but this thing is more than a fixer-upper - it needs a total rework. Plus cosmetically it's pretty rough so even if you went to the trouble of rebuilding it, it would still not be a keeper for most people. |
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Buddy Castleberry
From:
HAWKINSVILLE GA USA - R.I.P.
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Posted 5 Apr 2011 8:09 am
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BOBBY DID DO THE COVERSIONS AT ONE TIME
HE DID ONE FOR ME BUT DUANE MARRS DONE THE WORK
IT WAS A GREAT SOUNDING GUITAR I PLAYED IT FOR SEVERAL YEARS |
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Brandon Bankes
From:
Zanesville, Ohio
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Posted 5 Apr 2011 8:47 am
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Randy - sounds like its the same guy. He told me he was in Knoxville.. which is pretty close to Maryville. Good thing I passed on it. Just a general bad feeling from the beginning.
Just for laughs, I called again to see if he would send better pictures of the undercarriage, and asked some questions about it based on what you guys had seen. He said everything worked "just as it should", and that it was in "near mint" condition. When I started asking specific questions he interrupted me and said "sorry, I sold it yesterday". Hah!
Hopefully the person that got it bought it for super cheap or has intentions of fixing it up.. |
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Doug Beaumier
From:
Northampton, MA
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Randy Brown
From:
Knoxville, Tennessee, USA
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Posted 5 Apr 2011 10:04 am
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I found the photos I snapped of it with my phone while I was there.
As you can see the LKR is mounted kinda like a vertical lever but it's facing forward - there is no way you can use it like that. All the knee levers lacked positive stops. Also notice the makeshift braces in the corners - please tell me those aren't factory! I wish I could have got a good shot of the changer, but the guy started giving me dirty looks when he realized I was taking pictures, so I stopped.
I couldn't tell much about the tone of the guitar. I was playing without picks and without volume pedal, really just plugging it in to make sure the pickups worked.
But, to be fair.... he did have quite a few nice 6-string guitars and vintage amps which appeared to be in great shape, and reasonable prices. I don't think he's a bad guy - I think he just got in over his head when he took in this Emmons on trade, and now he's trying to unload it without taking too big of a hit. |
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chris ivey
From:
california (deceased)
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Posted 5 Apr 2011 10:14 am
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| chris lucker..i'd just like to offer my condolences! |
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Buddy Castleberry
From:
HAWKINSVILLE GA USA - R.I.P.
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Posted 5 Apr 2011 10:28 am
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| THATS NOT ANYTHING BOBBY DID ,THE ONE HE DID FOR ME LOOKED AND WORKED GREAT |
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Chris Lucker
From:
Los Angeles, California USA
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Posted 5 Apr 2011 11:19 am
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Even though there is really no reason to go into an analysis of this guitar, here for those interested, is a photo of what the keyheads SHOULD look like.
This is something very early Emmons fakers never get right.
Also in the photo are a little glimpse of what the first 50 Emmons fretboards looked like -- 24 frets, by the way. They were used until maybe May 1965.
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Chris Lucker
Red Bellies, Bigsbys and a lot of other guitars. |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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