P/U question for 1946 Gibson BR-1 Ultratone

George Rout · Post by **George Rout** » 23 Mar 2011 5:24 pm

A few months back, I was given an Ultratone. It has two tone and one volume controls. They were not working correctly (two acted as volumes). My great antique guitar serviceman told me the bad news, that is, one of the two p/u coil windings is open (not shorted).

We all know that windings (open or shorted) can be anywhere for any reason.

If I have to abandon the original p/u, what are some options I might have so the controls would work as originally intended?

Thanks.

Geo

Jay Fagerlie · Post by **Jay Fagerlie** » 24 Mar 2011 5:58 am

I'm sure Jason Lollar could rewind it for you.

Jay

Tom Pettingill · Post by **Tom Pettingill** » 24 Mar 2011 6:49 am

I'd suggest having the original re-wound or fixed if that what it needs. And as Jay suggests, Lollar would be a good option for a repair or a drop in replacement if you needed.

I'm wondering though, I'm not aware of Gibson using dual coil pickups in the early Ultratone.
It may be that the 3 knob wiring, or a component of is bad.
Steve Ahola posted a great description / break down of how its all wired and supposed to work. Perhaps that info may be of help to your tech to further diagnose the problem.
http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=185016

George Rout · Post by **George Rout** » 24 Mar 2011 7:46 am

Thanks both Jay and Tom for your help. I'm assuming I would have Jason Lollar do the job.

On Page 235 of Duchossoir's book entitled Gibson Electric Steel Guitars, along with other data, it states "The BR-1 Ultratone was fitted with an inovative three-control circuitry designed to broaden the spectrum of its toneal response. The volume control was supplemented by two tone controls with two different frequency cuts thanks to their wiring and two different capacitors................".

Somebody on the Forum kindly sent the schematic to me and my serviceman confirms the guitar is in accordance with it, but one of the windings is open. He's pretty good but perhaps I'll have somebody re-verify that fact.

I'll keep you posted.

Geo

George Rout · Post by **George Rout** » 24 Apr 2011 7:03 am

Tom, a bit of a delay, but your comment is correct. I just had my brother in law take apart the Ultratone and the coil is not double wound at all. My great antique guitar man I guess isn't that great afterall. But the coil is open.

The bobbin is distorted in shape, not uncommon for plastic of that time. When we went to very carefully remove the tape around the coil, it was impossible due to the age and previoud damp environment. I noted a thread by Joseph Lollar back a number of years ago, wherein he was looking for the dimensions and basic data on how the pick-up physically mounted on the guitar. It basically sits on a metal plate above the cavity.

Can anybody tell me the resistance of the original Ultratone pickup, so I can have one rewound or possibly find a suitable drop-in pickup.

I would appreciate any comments folks have. I also need to contact Joseph Lollar, I'll look it up on the forum, now.

George

Tom Pettingill · Post by **Tom Pettingill** » 24 Apr 2011 8:10 am

George, does it look like this? I had Jason wind me this one for one of my UltraP's, it measures 7.47.

.

Russ Cudney · Post by **Russ Cudney** » 24 Apr 2011 9:12 am

George,
You're right. Those old bobbins always seem to be distorted. Either warped plastic or thin fiberboard. I recently rewound one for a pal of mine's Harmony. I wanted to just build a new pickup to fit in the cover, but he wanted it as original as possible. I ended up shimming the original bobbins with thicker fiberboard. Was barely able to get the 10,000 winds required to fit. See thread:
http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=200624
Good luck with your restoration....

George Rout · Post by **George Rout** » 24 Apr 2011 10:25 am

Thanmks Tom & Russ. lGreat stluff, nice pics also.

Yes, my pickup looks identical to that one in your picture. I'm away from home for the Easter holidays and can't take a pic of mine, but it's identical.

Tom, what does the 7.47 represent please?

Thanks again for great help guys.

George

Garry Vanderlinde · Post by **Garry Vanderlinde** » 24 Apr 2011 2:02 pm

Can one of you smart fellers tell me how these pickups are wired in?
There are two black leads coming out of the bottom and no ground.
I tried to put one in a guitar and couldn’t make it work.

Tom Pettingill · Post by **Tom Pettingill** » 24 Apr 2011 2:24 pm

Tom, what does the 7.47 represent please?

7.47k is the resistance of the pickup / coil.

If you need to go that route and have a replacement made, email Jason to get it in the works as its not a stock item listed on his web site.

Tom Pettingill · Post by **Tom Pettingill** » 24 Apr 2011 2:36 pm

There are two black leads coming out of the bottom and no ground.

Generally the start wire on a coil is used for the ground so that if there was any shorting of the inner wires to the magnets, that the pickup would still work.
With that particular pickup, on the bottom there are 2 spots where the wires comes out. The wire closest to the middle would be the start or ground.

George Rout · Post by **George Rout** » 24 Apr 2011 5:38 pm

Thanks again Tom. My brother-in-law and I spent some time unwinding some of the winds, eliminated some loose pieces of wire and finally found a solid loop., However, it was still open, so the break could be anywhere. When I get back home on Tuesday, I'll take pics of the bobbin and dimensions and send a note to Jason to get an order entered.

I have about 15 other steels so there isn't any rush, only enthusiasm to have it working correctly!!!

Thanks for your note re the resistance value. After I viewed Jasons's site, I realized that is what youi meant.

Regards.

George

J D Sauser · Post by **J D Sauser** » 25 Apr 2011 4:16 am

I've told the story so many times, I think everybody's afraid I might again.
Anyways, to make it short, I've had a like new early Gibson UltraTone (GUT) once and was stupid enough to sell it (it was "just" a goofy looking 6 stringer) when I "progressed" to PSG, even though it was my best sounding axe EVER.
The guitar was so "hot" we called it the "blow dryer", for it had such an electric presence. It was not just loud, it was so "non-acoustic" (for the lack of better words to describe it).

I am truly convinced that 90% of the GUT's tonal superiority came from "that" pickup.
It is being SAID to be a P-90... I do however NOT believe that these were stock P-90's as found on standard electric and semi acoustic guitars for decades to follow. The "electric presence" is second to nothing I have ever owned or touched (me being the proud owner of several pre-war Ricky's!).
Interestingly, the recently introduced re-issue Gibson "UltraTone" STANDARD guitar boast a pickup labeled as a "STEEL P-90".

So, if you plan to have that pup re-wound, I would suggest you'd urge to have who ever will do it, UNWIND your pickup in an investigative manner (recording the exact number of windings, total length of wire and exact gauge. The size of the windings may also yield hints as to the tension on the wire at the time of winding the pup.
I would be very interested to hear about those results and how it does compare (if at all) to a stock P-90.

... J-D.

Tom Pettingill · Post by **Tom Pettingill** » 25 Apr 2011 3:35 pm

It is being SAID to be a P-90... I do however NOT believe that these were stock P-90's as found on standard electric and semi acoustic guitars for decades to follow

They are not the P90 that we think of today, but were / are the predecessor to them. This original version shares the same coil size and shape, but uses non adjustable Alnico magnets for pole pieces instead of the later design with screws and bar magnets. The result is I think you get a sweeter all around tone with less of the midrange nasally character of a "modern" P90.

George Rout · Post by **George Rout** » 25 Apr 2011 5:56 pm

Thanks J.D. for your interesting observations and also Tom for your assurance that I will get what I hope to receive from Jason Lollar.

I am not home yet, so I cannot show you the distorted bobbin pics. I will send all the details to Jason and if he wants the bobbin to rewind, I will ask for his assurance that I want one equal to new. The bobbin still has most of the windings on it, we just took off a small number before we came to an unbroken wire.

However, I think Jason musbe be able to calculate the 7.XXXX whatever resistance of the original. Tom, did Jason build yours from scratch, and did you know the resistance?

Thanks again guys.

Geo

Tom Pettingill · Post by **Tom Pettingill** » 25 Apr 2011 10:02 pm

Tom, did Jason build yours from scratch, and did you know the resistance?

He built it from scratch. As near as I can tell from the detailed drawing he mailed me, its obvious he has dissected and documented some originals examples to include even the gauss readings of the magnets.

This is my first 6 string version of this design, but I have used a few of his Gibson Console 8 reproductions and they are very nice sounding. They are the very same thing, just in an 8 string configuration.

J D Sauser · Post by **J D Sauser** » 26 Apr 2011 12:37 am

Tom Pettingill wrote:
It is being SAID to be a P-90... I do however NOT believe that these were stock P-90's as found on standard electric and semi acoustic guitars for decades to follow
They are not the P90 that we think of today, but were / are the predecessor to them. This original version shares the same coil size and shape, but uses non adjustable Alnico magnets for pole pieces instead of the later design with screws and bar magnets. The result is I think you get a sweeter all around tone with less of the midrange nasally character of a "modern" P90.

They certainly seem to be predecessors to the later known P90's. Yet, I must say that I have never touched or even heard a Gibson "standard" guitar of similar vintage to have the "electric presence" my GUT had... as a matter of fact not ANY other instrument of any vintage. So, I doubt that the pups mounted in early GUT's would be even the same than early P90's produced for other instruments during the same era.
Maybe THAT's why the came up with the name "Ultra Tone", because besides the "funky" design with all the Plexi glass, and the pink tuners, the guitar is not much different than most any lap steel Gibson produced in those times, yet they had quite something going for themselves, now didn't they.
You replace that pup with something else, even something which "they" would call a P90 and all you're likely to be left with is a BR-1... no "Ultra" and little "Tone"

... J-D.

George Rout · Post by **George Rout** » 13 Jun 2011 7:05 pm

I've been off the Forum for a bit and also had "peuter" problems.

I just want to finish the thread about the pick-up for my 1946 Ultratone. Jason Lollar is not accepting any new "specials" for two or three months according to his nephew with whom I spoke on the phone a few weeks back.

I'll try again in September.

I might even buy a stock P90 pickup in the meantime just to try the guitar.

Thanks for everybodys help along the way.

Geo

Charlie Vegas · Post by **Charlie Vegas** » 14 Jun 2011 12:01 pm

J D Sauser wrote:Interestingly, the recently introduced re-issue Gibson "UltraTone" STANDARD guitar boast a pickup labeled as a "STEEL P-90".

What re-issue ?

John Billings · Post by **John Billings** » 14 Jun 2011 12:31 pm

George,
I have the matching amp! A '46 BR-1. Killer amp! Two 6L6s and a 12" speaker. When I got it, more that 35 years ago, it needed service. Drove to Chicago from Milwaukee, and went to, I think it was CMI that owned Gibson back then, and asked for a schematic. They laughed their butts off at me, but after some rummaging around, they produced a copy of a hand drawn schematic. I also bought a Condor unit for my '58 Flying V that was stolen two years later. Man! If I still had that, I'd sell it and buy a condo in Florida!

Edited to add;
J-D, what is the body wood on those guitars?

Jason Lollar · Post by **Jason Lollar** » 14 Jun 2011 2:00 pm

I am not taking any repairs for a while but I would certainly make a standard item like an ultra tone pickup. A P-90 wont fit- wrong pole spacing, wrong mounting holes.
They are similar to P-90s in ways- i have taken specs from hundreds of old steel guitar pickups and can say these early racetrack shaped pickups whatever you want to call them varied alot, even the wire gauge varied. i come up with my specs from actual hands on observations of originals and then I make them in a way I can make sure they sound good and i have had a little success doing that over the years but you cant always please everyone.

George Rout · Post by **George Rout** » 14 Jun 2011 5:54 pm

Hello Jason and thank you so much for your input and clarification on the Ultratone pick-up. I wouild like to order one. Two pics of my old one are below.

Do you wish me to send the old one to you for physical measurement verification?

Tom Pettigil above says the resistance is 7.47K.

How do I enter an order and pay you? I can pay by PayPal. You can send a private email to me through the Forum. By the way, you won't have any trouble pleasing me!!!!!

Thanks again Jason and keep up the excellent work.

George Rout

George Rout · Post by **George Rout** » 29 Jul 2011 6:45 pm

I wish to thank one and all who posted input to this thread and particularly Jason Lollar for his speedy and excellent work. Jason, the pickup is installed in the Ultratone and is beautiful.

Thank you so much for working the pickup into your busy schedule.

George

Chris Lucker · Post by **Chris Lucker** » 30 Jul 2011 11:17 am

When you removed the wire from your pickup, what diameter was it? Did you have a chance to measure the wire after removing it's insulation?

George Rout · Post by **George Rout** » 31 Jul 2011 5:30 pm

Hi Chris. I spoke with my brother-in-law who removed the old and installed the new one for me. He didn't measure the wire size in the old pickup.

If it's really important, I guess you could contact Jason Lollar and ask him what size wire he used on the new pickup he shipped to George Rout in St. Catharines, ON.

Regards.

Geo

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