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Topic: Getting parts for pedal steel guitars |
Will Cowell
From:
Cambridgeshire, UK
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Posted 2 Nov 2010 2:16 am |
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OK guys, I'm in UK, that probably doesn't help. And my question comes up in a roundabout sort of way, so bear with me...
I'm rebuilding my old Marlen D-10 as an SD-10, with an all-pull changer and a Lace Alumitone pickup. I have reasons, just in case the purists ask, but it would muddy the waters to say why straight away.
The changer fingers need springs to hold them back against the stops. Too weak, and the action lacks definition and "crisp return". Too strong, and the raises don't work at all. So the tension has to be variable. I shouldn't be surprised, all the commercially built guitars out there seem to have a variable spring tensioner designed in.
So I'm looking for something to go in the end of the spring, to accept a long machine screw. I took a peek under the Zum I have on loan from John Davis (thanks JD). What a kludge! A nut, twined somehow into the turns of the coil spring. Not pretty, but it works I guess. Surprising to see it on a guitar of this quality, that's all.
Doesn't anyone make an insert that fits into the spring and accepts a machine screw down the middle? Guess what? I can't see anything out there at all. I have had to make some out of brass rod, threaded "wrong handed" to screw into the back of the spring, slotted for a screwdriver one end so as so aid fitment, threaded M3 internally to accept the adjusting screw. Pics available if anyone is interested.
Very fulfilling to do it yourself, but have I missed a source of supply for widgets like this? 
All the best,
Will Cowell
_________________
Williams 700 series keyless U12,
Sierra keyless U14, Eezzee-Slide & BJS bars
Moth-eaten old Marshall 150 combo
Roland Cube 80XL, Peterson Strobo+HD,
EarthQuaker Despatch Master for reverb / delay |
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Allan Munro
From:
Pennsylvania, USA and Scotland
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Posted 2 Nov 2010 5:48 am Re: Getting parts for pedal steel guitars
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| Will Cowell wrote: |
| ...Pics available if anyone is interested. ... |
Yes please...
Thanks, Allan.....
_________________
Only nuts eat squirrels.
Television is the REAL opiate of the masses! |
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Chris Lucker
From:
Los Angeles, California USA
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Posted 2 Nov 2010 10:57 am
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On early Emmons guitars the lower return springs were simply attached to screws with a short length of the tip of the threaded end ground flat, with a hole drilled through the flat for looping the end of the spring. The screw went through a threaded hole in the lower return bracket.
On later push pull guitars this long screw was replaced by a 3 1/2 inch or so long length of 1/8 welding rod with a tension spring attached to the end and a little piano wire hook that was attached at one end to the finger and the other end to the tension spring. This assembly was adjustable because the 1/8 rod passes through a lower return bracket and is held in place by a movable set collar.
On even later push pulls the little piano wire hook was replaced by a long hook added to the actual tension spring.
On the pull-release Marlens I have owned and refurbished, I simply replaced that fixed lower return with an adjustable Emmons push pull style. I made one with a finely adjustable threaded rod but found absolutely no value to the hassle. A spring loaded pull rod passing through a piece of aluminum angle and held in tension by a movable set collar works fine.
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Chris Lucker
Red Bellies, Bigsbys and a lot of other guitars. |
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Earnest Bovine
From:
Los Angeles CA USA
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Posted 2 Nov 2010 11:22 am Re: Getting parts for pedal steel guitars
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| Will Cowell wrote: |
I have had to make some out of brass rod, threaded "wrong handed" to screw into the back of the spring, slotted for a screwdriver one end so as so aid fitment, threaded M3 internally to accept the adjusting screw. Pics available if anyone is interested.
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Yes, please post some photos if you can. |
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Earnest Bovine
From:
Los Angeles CA USA
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Posted 2 Nov 2010 11:28 am Re: Getting parts for pedal steel guitars
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| Will Cowell wrote: |
...the tension has to be variable. ... all the commercially built guitars out there seem to have a variable spring tensioner designed in.
Zum ... What a kludge! A nut, twined somehow into the turns of the coil spring. Not pretty, but it works I guess. Surprising to see it on a guitar of this quality, that's all.
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Not all were adjustable a few years ago, and many were too short. I changed GFI and Sho-Bud to longer adjustable springs and it works well. I don't see a problem with putting nuts in the springs. See the bad old springs on the 8 string neck in the back.
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Will Cowell
From:
Cambridgeshire, UK
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Posted 2 Nov 2010 11:47 am
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OK guys, here's what I came up with.
_________________
Williams 700 series keyless U12,
Sierra keyless U14, Eezzee-Slide & BJS bars
Moth-eaten old Marshall 150 combo
Roland Cube 80XL, Peterson Strobo+HD,
EarthQuaker Despatch Master for reverb / delay |
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Earnest Bovine
From:
Los Angeles CA USA
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Posted 2 Nov 2010 12:14 pm
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| Looks very nice. |
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chris ivey
From:
california (deceased)
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Posted 2 Nov 2010 1:03 pm
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| those inserts look great..nothing better needed. |
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Will Cowell
From:
Cambridgeshire, UK
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Posted 2 Nov 2010 1:27 pm
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Thanks! I chose the diameter so the spring would grip them nice and tight. They won't pull out. I wanted them to look like they were designed in, in the first place. There's plenty of stuff I've seen by now, and "handsome is as handsome does", but I wanted it to look neat, unobtrusive.
Now I've got to get those screws through the end-plate in a neat line, and it'll be time to wind 'em up and see if it all works. I'd love to get a small milling machine, it would make some of these jobs so much easier.
Here's the changer and Alumitone pickup in place. That pickup is bright and clear, and *no* hum. It's a clever design. Once everything works ok I'll strip the body and re-lacquer it, and polish all the metalwork. May have to re-make that pad too, but as a first try I'm happy with it. Keeps me off the streets...
Will
_________________
Williams 700 series keyless U12,
Sierra keyless U14, Eezzee-Slide & BJS bars
Moth-eaten old Marshall 150 combo
Roland Cube 80XL, Peterson Strobo+HD,
EarthQuaker Despatch Master for reverb / delay |
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Chet Wilcox
From:
Illinois, USA (deceased)
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Posted 2 Nov 2010 2:50 pm
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| Hey Will, looks like a good design idea to me,Chet |
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Ned McIntosh
From:
New South Wales, Australia
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Posted 3 Nov 2010 3:48 am
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Interesting changer, not an original Marlen all-pull unit I'm thinking?
Re the milling machine. Small ones don't work so well because the vertical column on which the milling-head is mounted flexes and moves and you get tool "chatter-marks" on the workpiece. A larger unit is more rigid and gives a better result. Economising on the rigidity of a milling-machine is a false economy.
I'm currently making undercarriage parts for a Marlen pull-release D10 with a Unimat 3 lathe and milling attachment. The lathe part works fine but the milling attachment is working at its limit, which can be frustrating.
_________________
The steel guitar is a hard mistress. She will obsess you, bemuse and bewitch you. She will dash your hopes on what seems to be whim, only to tease you into renewing the relationship once more so she can do it to you all over again...and yet, if you somehow manage to touch her in that certain magic way, she will yield up a sound which has so much soul, raw emotion and heartfelt depth to it that she will pierce you to the very core of your being. |
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Will Cowell
From:
Cambridgeshire, UK
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Posted 5 Nov 2010 12:07 pm
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No, it's a unit I bought from Dave Seddon over here. It underlines what I mean about how hard it is to buy parts for a steel. It was obviously made here. The fingers aren't too regular in the way the tabs are folded over... but no reason why it shouldn't work just fine.
About these small milling machines, yes, a big solid one would work better, but I don't have the money for one, nor the room. A small machine used with patience (shallow cuts) should work ok I think.
_________________
Williams 700 series keyless U12,
Sierra keyless U14, Eezzee-Slide & BJS bars
Moth-eaten old Marshall 150 combo
Roland Cube 80XL, Peterson Strobo+HD,
EarthQuaker Despatch Master for reverb / delay |
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Bill Moore
From:
Manchester, Michigan
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Posted 5 Nov 2010 6:28 pm
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Will, if you google "threaded inserts" you will find almost the exact item that you came up with. Like these:
http://www.ezlok.com/Home/index.html
They are normally used to screw into a hole in a wood part, so you end up with a smaller, threaded hole for a machine screw. Not too long ago, I did a little work on an early Fessenden, early 90's, I guess. It used the same threaded inserts, screwed into the return springs, just like you show in your photo. |
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Will Cowell
From:
Cambridgeshire, UK
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Posted 5 Nov 2010 11:35 pm
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These are nice, I have bookmarked the site. I can't use them for this application, of course, because the sense of the threads is wrong. Could be cured by having special springs made with the opposite winding sense I guess, but we are back with having to make stuff again. But my cri de coeur was about parts for steels in general. If I wanted bellcranks to put on a cross-shaft, for example, I would have to make them or cannibalise an old guitar, it seems. We have StewMac for guitars, but who meets the needs of the steelie community? 
_________________
Williams 700 series keyless U12,
Sierra keyless U14, Eezzee-Slide & BJS bars
Moth-eaten old Marshall 150 combo
Roland Cube 80XL, Peterson Strobo+HD,
EarthQuaker Despatch Master for reverb / delay |
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richard burton
From:
Britain
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Posted 6 Nov 2010 12:24 am
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| I make any parts that I need, it doesn't matter to me that the parts that I make don't match any original components, indeed they might even look unsightly and be a bit rough round the edges, my sole concern is that the bits I make can do the job. |
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basilh
From:
United Kingdom
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Posted 7 Nov 2010 6:01 pm
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| Quote: |
| We have StewMac for guitars, but who meets the needs of the steelie community? |
Well, Ron Bennett for one, and the UK maestro of Emmons and Sho-Bud refurbishment, Bob Adams.
This is what I use for spring inserts. (From the same source as given above)
Click the Image..
_________________
Steelies do it without fretting
CLICK THIS to view my tone bars and buy——> |
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Alan Brookes
From:
Brummy living in Southern California
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Posted 8 Nov 2010 7:16 am Re: Getting parts for pedal steel guitars
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| Will Cowell wrote: |
| ...I'm rebuilding my old Marlen D-10 as an SD-10, with an all-pull changer and a Lace Alumitone pickup. I have reasons, just in case the purists ask, but it would muddy the waters to say why straight away.... |
So, now that the technical questions have mostly been answered, how about telling us why you undertook the conversion in the first place: I'm sure we're all curious to know. |
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Pete Burak
From:
Portland, OR USA
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Posted 8 Nov 2010 8:33 am Re: Getting parts for pedal steel guitars
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| Earnest Bovine wrote: |
| I changed GFI and Sho-Bud to longer adjustable springs and it works well. |
EB, Can you please post a pic of your Sho-Bud spring fix? That pic of your GFI is great!
I have a late 70's Pro-1 with the short springs that I would like to mod.
Thx,
pete b. |
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Earnest Bovine
From:
Los Angeles CA USA
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Posted 8 Nov 2010 8:58 am Re: Getting parts for pedal steel guitars
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| Pete Burak wrote: |
| Earnest Bovine wrote: |
| I changed GFI and Sho-Bud to longer adjustable springs and it works well. |
EB, Can you please post a pic of your Sho-Bud spring fix? That pic of your GFI is great!
I have a late 70's Pro-1 with the short springs that I would like to mod.
Thx,
pete b. |
OK, here I am measuring tension with a fish scale in order to choose a spring according to initial tension and rate (delta tension/delta length). Two fish scales gave very different readings so in the end I used empirical methods for spring selection.
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Pete Burak
From:
Portland, OR USA
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Posted 8 Nov 2010 10:24 am
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Thanks!
See how your lowering-fingers come down "at an angle" to the point where the spring hooks on...
The fingers on my steel go "straight down", and the springs are very short.
Last edited by Pete Burak on 11 Nov 2010 3:27 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Will Cowell
From:
Cambridgeshire, UK
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Posted 10 Nov 2010 5:17 am
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Alan asked why I changed the old gal in the first place.
First, the pickup wasn't great, single coil, lacked clarity (strangely, for a single coil) and there was hum I just couldn't screen out - coming in from the winding itself I think. No earth loops, etc. I wanted to try an Alumitone. The basic concept practically guarantees the elimination of hum.
Second, the changer has its limitations. It's direct, and keeps tune well, but setting it up to give good action, with minimum slop and consistent leverage rates, was really hard (damn near impossible IMHO). The real problem was leaving enough gap for the lowers, it then caused problems with excessive play before the raises came into effect. This would happen at a different rate for different strings, which I couldn't dial out by playing with the different rodding points on the changer fingers and bellcranks.
I wanted the consistency available with an all-pull changer, and as the guitar isn't rare, and will never have any intrinsic value according to the pundits I've spoken to, I thought I'd try converting it with a modern changer. I'm keeping all the parts in case I ever need to convert it back. Just a little more metal bashing to do - need to make up a bracket - then I can try it all out.
_________________
Williams 700 series keyless U12,
Sierra keyless U14, Eezzee-Slide & BJS bars
Moth-eaten old Marshall 150 combo
Roland Cube 80XL, Peterson Strobo+HD,
EarthQuaker Despatch Master for reverb / delay |
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Earnest Bovine
From:
Los Angeles CA USA
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Posted 12 Nov 2010 2:23 pm
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| Pete Burak wrote: |
Thanks!
See how your lowering-fingers come down "at an angle" to the point where the spring hooks on...
The fingers on my steel go "straight down", and the springs are very short.
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I don't see how the angle makes any difference. But I think long springs are better than short (less increase in tension at the point of max lowering, which is the point where you need it least.
Pete, you could do a slight increase in length by just drilling 14 holes in a little flat slab of metal as I did with my Sho-Bud in the photo above. Or you could get a larger increase in spring length by using an angled piece as on my GFI in the photo above, subject only to whether the new piece will fit in the case, or get knocked off by carrying it around. |
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Pete Burak
From:
Portland, OR USA
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Posted 13 Nov 2010 8:23 am
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| Earnest Bovine wrote: |
| Pete Burak wrote: |
Thanks!
See how your lowering-fingers come down "at an angle" to the point where the spring hooks on...
The fingers on my steel go "straight down", and the springs are very short.
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I don't see how the angle makes any difference. |
Thanks for your input, EB.
You can see in the pics of yours/mine that the angled lower-finger on your changer moves the springs connection-point about a half-inch away from the changer edge (mine ends right at the changer edge) allowing the use of a longer spring, and your extensions add even more.
The reason the short springs don't work as well is because any whole-tone raise maxes out the springs ability to hold the lower finger from "lifting-off" and counteracting the raise. A stiffer spring not only makes lowers very stiff, but also a whole-tone lower over-stretches the short spring.
So as it stands, it's a close balancing act that affects tuning stability (any lowering finger lift-off and you're out of tune), and I have experimented with alot of springs and spring "mods".
(fwiw, This steel originally only had one RKL knee lever lowering 2 and 8 a half tone (S10 3x1), and is now an S10U 7x5).
I was thinking that the longer springs would both hold the lower-finger in place during raises, and allow smooth whole tone lowers. I also raise string 9, B>D.
I am now thinking about adding a custom cut-and-bent piece of sheet metal (using those two hex-bolts on either side of the changer to hold it in place), there-by moving the spring mounting edge back beyong the end of the right end-plate.
It would look more like your GFI (but probably not adjustable). |
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Earnest Bovine
From:
Los Angeles CA USA
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Posted 13 Nov 2010 2:52 pm
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| Pete Burak wrote: |
I am now thinking about adding a custom cut-and-bent piece of sheet metal |
You can probably find an extruded piece at the hardware store. It may be 3 feet long and you need only 3 inches. |
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Alan Brookes
From:
Brummy living in Southern California
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Posted 13 Nov 2010 5:19 pm
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| Will Cowell wrote: |
| ...I wanted the consistency available with an all-pull changer... |
Okay, but why remove the C6 neck? |
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