Having trouble lowering G#-3rd to G...

Bob Metzger · From: Waltham (Boston), MA, USA

I have a Sho-Bud steel with super pro parts, E9 tuning. I'm lowering both of the G sharps, on the 3rd and 6th strings, to G, a half-step. This change is on a knee lever, left knee vertical. The change on the 6th string works perfectly but I can't seem to get the G#-3rd to lower all the way (it stays sharp of G). The string gauge on the G#-3rd is .011. I have the undercarriage rod on the puller finger hole (of five holes) farthest from the crossbar (most travel) and there is alot of tension on this lever -it's hard to actuate, not easy, although there is no binding anywhere. My changer is a triple raise/double lower and I have this 3rd string change in the changer hole that affords me the most travel. I just recently increased the knee lever travel by moving the stop back some but that didn't seem to affect the 3rd string at all (but it did affect the 6th string). It seems like I've hit the physical limit of this changer to lower this string any more. I've tried replacing the changer spring but that didn't help. Usually, shortening this spring only helps when the string/changer doesn't return to basic, which is not the case here. The only other change on the 3rd string is the usual 2nd pedal raising G-3rd to A which works perfectly; very smoothly and easily. I'm not using a helper spring on my 3rd string. I have, of course, backed off the nylon tuners on all the 3rd string changes and started over, just to make sure and this is not an issue. There is enough slack before engagement of the lever, as is necessary with all-pull changers. I'm a fairly good steel guitar mechanic and have been able to solve all my mechanical issues in the past but this one is perplexing. I haven't moved to a .012 gauge 3rd string (yet) because I play hard enough that I already break a fair amount of 3rd strings. Any advice or things I might try. Am I overlooking something here?

Thanks in adv.

Bob M.
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Bob M.

Joseph Barcus · From: Volga West Virginia

make sure your stop is adjusted right on the changer or if theres any stop screws on the knee that might not allow it to lower most likly if its like my emmons here it has a stop on the changer but we have to wait for the sho-bud guys to chime in
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https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCvuH7H8BajODaL_wy3_HSJQ

Matthew Prouty · From: Warsaw, Poland

Bob,

What happens if you back the tuning nuts off of your 3rd string raise, 6th string lower, so the only thing on this knee lever is the 3rd string lower and there is no other factors coming into play with the 3rd string (the raise)?

m.

Bob Metzger · From: Waltham (Boston), MA, USA

Matthew,
I have backed off the nylon tuners completely (no engagement) on the 3rd string raise (G# to A) and also and simultaneously on the 6th string lower (G# to G) with the same results as I've posted above. It's a perplexing problem.

Bob M.
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Bob M.

Clyde Lane · From: Glasgow, Kentucky, USA

Try a .0115 or .012 string. Some Sho-Buds have trouble lowering the 3rd to G.
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Clyde Lane

Earnest Bovine · From: Los Angeles CA USA

richard burton · From: Britain

I'll tell you what it is, as I've seen this before on Shobuds.

A half-tone lower is no problem, but when you want to drop a skinny string a full tone, the changer finger lowering segment has to move so far that the rod (from the lowering knee lever) binds in the hole (in the finger)

Get a small round file, and elongate this hole until the rod no longer binds.

Bob Metzger · From: Waltham (Boston), MA, USA

Yes, Clyde, when I originally set up this steel, I tried it with the helper spring on the 3rd string and without it and it seemed to give easier pedal action without it and with no benefit with it, so I removed it. I use helper springs only on strings where there is a noticeable benefit. My understanding is that these springs are only helping with raises.

Bob M.
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Bob M.

chris ivey · From: california (deceased)

richard..if a 1/2 tone lower is no problem, why is he having trouble with a 1/2 tone lower. G# to G is a half step...he's having a problem. now what were you saying?

richard burton · From: Britain

Whoops Chris, semi-senior moment Embarassed

Pete Burak · From: Portland, OR USA

We need to how far you can lower the G# note when pushing on the lowering finger with an allen wrench or some other object like a screw-driver.
This will rule out a pull-rod/bell-crank linkage issue, and possibly point to a rivot in the changer finger that may be getting hung up.

Brint Hannay · From: Maryland, USA

I agree the rivet may be the trouble, although my Super Pro does the 3rd string lower to G with no problem.

Pete Burak · From: Portland, OR USA

I too have a triple-raise/double-lower changer and have no issue lowering G#'s to G.
I converted mine to an S10U so I actually lower 3 G#'s to G (string 10 is a G#).

Dana Blodgett · From: California, USA

Bob, It sounds like you've done everything correct so far by removing the helper spring(sometimes they can be too strong) and not letting the string lower all the way. I would consider changing the gauge of strings to see whether it will let lower to the same pitch with less travel.
Have you read the article by Winnie Winston in his Pedal Steel Workshop in "Steel Guitarist" NO. 5, May 1980? page 49, there is a two page article about correcting lowering problems on Sho-Buds. I have an old 6140 that is converted to a 3+4 and my lower for this is on the right knee left position. Jim Palenscar installed lever with James Morehouse parts, so far everything is working perfectly. Have you talked with Jim about this problem? You can google Steel Guitars of the North County or send me a PM or e-mail for his contacts I am pretty sure he might be able to provide some insight to this problem.The Steel Guitarist is available thru the forum here.
Dana
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Dana Blodgett
From Los Osos,Ca.
'74 ShoBud 6140 3+4, Martins HD28,D-12-28, D-15,'65 Gibson LG-1, '77 Gibson Les Paul special dbl cut p-90's, Les Paul Special p-100's,Les paul Special Hybrid(maple top) hbkr's,'68 Fender Strat reissue, Fender Squire Jazz bass,Epi mandolin,Epi Wilshire '66 reissue, Kamaka Concert uke, 70's Kamaka Soprano Uke, Fender Super amp, Ampeg ba112 bass amp,60's harmony banjo,'00 Gibson SG Supreme

Bob Metzger · From: Waltham (Boston), MA, USA

I want to thank all who left a post - the SGF is a great and very helpful place.

Here was the plan of action I took: First off, just to double-check, I backed off the nylon tuners on all 3rd string changes as well as all changes on my left knee vertical. With just the G# to G change on the 3rd string working now, it exhibited the same problem. So then I disassembled everything on the 3rd string, removed nylon tuners, undercarriage rods and, of course, the 3rd string itself. Then I first thoroughly cleaned the changer parts on the 3rd string with isopropyl and re-oiled everything, working the oil into the changer parts. I did notice some 'debris' fell out of the changer, like small bits of broken strings past and an old string ball end. I re-assembled everything and guess what, the problem was gone. My 3rd string lowers just fine now (G# to G). It must've been debris stuff stuck well inside the changer that was impeding its lowering action.

Thanks for all the help,

Bob M.
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Bob M.

Dana Blodgett · From: California, USA

Bob, Right on... I was wondering about debris and or pieces of old strings, but you mentioned there was no binging so I didn't mention it.Glad you got it fixed. It is amazing what can get lodged in the changer system at times. I recently dug out a whole bunch of debris when I was adjusting my "F" lever last month.Happy Holidays!
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Dana Blodgett
From Los Osos,Ca.
'74 ShoBud 6140 3+4, Martins HD28,D-12-28, D-15,'65 Gibson LG-1, '77 Gibson Les Paul special dbl cut p-90's, Les Paul Special p-100's,Les paul Special Hybrid(maple top) hbkr's,'68 Fender Strat reissue, Fender Squire Jazz bass,Epi mandolin,Epi Wilshire '66 reissue, Kamaka Concert uke, 70's Kamaka Soprano Uke, Fender Super amp, Ampeg ba112 bass amp,60's harmony banjo,'00 Gibson SG Supreme

John Billings · From: Ohio, USA

"An' I said . . .
Look here brother,
Who you jivin' with that Cosmik Debris?"

Merry Christmas Bob!
JB

Bob Metzger · From: Waltham (Boston), MA, USA

I should've known better. Usually, it's a broken string end with a ball attach and it's easy to find and pull out of the changer. But this time it was very tiny metal bits, probably small bits of broken strings, that got jammed in just the right place in the changer. I get busy and sometimes steel maintenance gets back-burnered. I've been using two steels the last few years and this one is the #2, so it got a bit ignored. It was overdue for a long look and some TLC.

Thanks alot for the comments and advice. Isn't Cosmik Debris playing New York City next month?

Happy Holidays,
Bob M.
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Bob M.

John Billings · From: Ohio, USA

Just heard from another of the old Milwaukee guys yesterday. JL. Don't know if you'd remember him.

Bob Metzger · From: Waltham (Boston), MA, USA

John,

I'm not sure I remember him?

B.
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Bob M.

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