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Topic: Western Swing Harmonic Structure |
Gary Meixner
From:
New York, USA
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Posted 11 Dec 2014 11:12 am |
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This is kind of an awkward question for me to articulate but I will do my best: How would you describe the harmony used by the Western Swing groups of the late 1930's and early 40's? Did the arrangements tend to adhere to basic diatonic rules, and use extensions such as 6th, 9th and 13ths to add color, or did the arrangements include the use of altered chords and more advanced harmonic ideas?
Some soloist used predominately major scales and blues scales to create their solos, while other were much more liberal in their use of chromatics. Was this a result of them pushing their personal limits or was there an underlying harmony nudging them along.
As an example Tiny Moore played such startling solos filled with tension, I often wonder where he drew his ideas from.
No matter how you look at it, all of these guys were brilliant by either creating very new sounding music with limited harmonic tools or by participating and contributing to the expansion of modern jazz thinking.
Your thoughts and comments are encouraged.
Best always,
Gary Meixner |
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Brad Bechtel
From:
San Francisco, CA
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Posted 12 Dec 2014 7:38 am
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Moved to Music from Steel Without Pedals, as this is a more general question than just for steel guitarists.
Western Swing, to me, is a type of jazz originally popularized in Texas and Oklahoma. The people who played it were usually very well versed in other jazz styles of the period, and contributed to the advancement of jazz in other bands. Players like Jimmy Wyble passed between Western Swing and other jazz with no problems.
As far as arrangements go, you'd have to listen to the various recordings available to hear how harmonies were applied to the songs. Bob Wills, for example, played everything from Fats Waller to W. C. Handy in addition to his many other hits (by Cindy Walker and others).
Here's an older Guitar Player magazine article that describes Western Swing from the guitarist's side of things.
Search for "Western Swing" to find lots of articles online about this genre, or check out some of these books for more discussions.
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Brad’s Page of Steel
A web site devoted to acoustic & electric lap steel guitars |
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Jack Hanson
From:
San Luis Valley, USA
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Posted 12 Dec 2014 9:17 am
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| Brad Bechtel wrote: |
| Search for "Western Swing" to find lots of articles online about this genre, or check out some of these books for more discussions. |
I purchased and read Jean A. Boyd's fine book The Jazz of the Southwest: An Oral History of Western Swing a while back. Interesting read. She makes the case that the chief difference between Big Band Swing and Western Swing is the former favors horns, where the latter substitutes stringed instruments as soloists. |
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Mike Neer
From:
NJ
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Posted 12 Dec 2014 9:40 am
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The harmony was somewhere between country music and swing. It lacks the harmonic sophistication of Bebop and even swing, but there are elements of extended harmony and chromaticism there. I think the music of Django and the Hot Club was a big influence. Also, the blues were a major component of the music.
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Links to streaming music, websites, YouTube: Links |
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Les Cargill
From:
Oklahoma City, Ok, USA
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Posted 12 Dec 2014 3:22 pm
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Bob Wills was just a maverick innovator no matter what you call it. He ( and his impeccable stable of musicians ) used every influence available and used them all proficiently.
Warning: I am a chord stacker. That's how I was trained.
A 6 chord is the vi chord and the I chord ( the tonic and relative minor - C maj plus A min for a C6 chord ) overlaid. A 9 is sorta the IIsus chord partially laid over the tonic if you keep the 6 note in there. That's ambiguous, modal. More than one corner to work - you can stay a lot in the diatonic scale and still draw a lot of color with just those two. A 13 adds something like a tonic sus4, which is like the color of the IV chord... but not with a hard edge, with shades of grey.
Draw to mix and Lydian on top of those, and there's enough to keep you busy for a while.
I ain't sure how much bebop there really is in Western swing. I think swing-ish players dabbled in it ( modulo Hank Garland and a few steel players we all know - those guys were serious about it) , but the songs are not like the sort of *hard* bop stuff that came later - they're more like Basie, Ellington and ( much less like ) Glenn Miller. Hard bop is pretty inaccessible. I feel like with hard bop, it's okay with them if there's an audience; just don't get in the way - but it's a bit too introspective for my tastes as entertainment product. |
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Andy Volk
From:
Boston, MA
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Posted 12 Dec 2014 7:02 pm
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Mike nailed it. The one thing I'd add was that the music usually had a 2/4 feel versus the 4/4 feel of much of the jazz of the 20's - 50s. In bands like Billy Jack Wills', the 4/4/ feel was more prominent and eventually, boggie woogie tunes began to feel like rock & roll.
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Steel Guitar Books! Website: www.volkmediabooks.com |
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Gary Meixner
From:
New York, USA
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Posted 13 Dec 2014 12:45 pm
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Thank you for your responses, this is all very helpful. I play with an aspiring Western Swing group whose guitarist has a limited chord vocabulary and almost no understanding of music theory. Arrangements often have to be compromised and I get tired of explaining what is going on with the harmony. A lot of times it doesn't matter, but on some tunes I miss having more to work with. I would like to give him more direction but not overwhelm him.
Andy, your point about playing with a 2/4 feel is also so important, and it is hard to get modern musicians who grew up on rock and roll to understand the difference.
Despite all my complaining these are a great bunch of guys to play with and I enjoy the music very much.
Thanks again,
G. Meixner |
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Gary Meixner
From:
New York, USA
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Posted 13 Dec 2014 12:45 pm
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Thank you for your responses, this is all very helpful. I play with an aspiring Western Swing group whose guitarist has a limited chord vocabulary and almost no understanding of music theory. Arrangements often have to be compromised and I get tired of explaining what is going on with the harmony. A lot of times it doesn't matter, but on some tunes I miss having more to work with. I would like to give him more direction but not overwhelm him.
Andy, your point about playing with a 2/4 feel is also so important, and it is hard to get modern musicians who grew up on rock and roll to understand the difference.
Despite all my complaining these are a great bunch of guys to play with and I enjoy the music very much.
Thanks again,
G. Meixner |
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Leon Grizzard
From:
Austin, Texas, USA
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Posted 15 Dec 2014 9:27 am
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| Gary Meixner wrote: |
Thank you for your responses, this is all very helpful. I play with an aspiring Western Swing group whose guitarist has a limited chord vocabulary and almost no understanding of music theory. Arrangements often have to be compromised and I get tired of explaining what is going on with the harmony. A lot of times it doesn't matter, but on some tunes I miss having more to work with. I would like to give him more direction but not overwhelm him.
Andy, your point about playing with a 2/4 feel is also so important, and it is hard to get modern musicians who grew up on rock and roll to understand the difference.
Despite all my complaining these are a great bunch of guys to play with and I enjoy the music very much.
Thanks again,
G. Meixner |
I have some videos on Western Swing rhythm guitar, and I also show some things Eldon Shamblin does on his old instructional video. May be helpful. Here's the first WS Rhythm Guitar video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=44zOQ8MpFYs |
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Mark van Allen
From:
Watkinsville, Ga. USA
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Jim Cohen
From:
Philadelphia, PA
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Jim Kennedy
From:
Brentwood California, USA
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Posted 1 Jan 2015 12:53 pm
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"IF" your guitar player is willing to do the work, start him practicing some stock western swing progressions. Hopefully this will peek his interest. That worked for me. Once my "ear" got tuned to how it should sound it became much more enjoyable to play. But it's like developing any skill. The big "IF" is the biggest factor. Good luck.
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ShoBud Pro 1, 75 Tele, 85 Yamaha SA 2000, Fender Cybertwin, |
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Ellis Miller
From:
Cortez, Colorado, USA
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Posted 10 Jan 2015 2:16 pm
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Might want to analyze some of the big band charts of the day and see how they handled the harmony structures of the instruments that were playing parts - Glenn Miller, Dorsey brothers etc. The western swing guys borrowed from the big band genre. Written big band arrangements are pretty easy to come by.
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Ellis Miller
Don't believe everything you think.
http://www.ellismillermusic.com |
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Jerome Hawkes
From:
Fayetteville, North Carolina, USA
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Posted 12 Jan 2015 4:21 pm
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i would assume it was driven more by the DANCE styles that were unique to the southwest more than the harmonic structure. there are many stories of Bob Wills coming east of the Mississippi and it bombing....totally different dance style.
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'65 Sho-Bud D-10 Permanent • '54 Fender Dual-8 • Clinesmith T-8 • '38 Ric Bakelite • '92 Emmons D-10 Legrande II |
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Mark Hooley
From:
California, USA
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Posted 4 Feb 2015 1:18 pm
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For some great western swing guitar (in my opinion) you might want to check out my internet radio station at Live365.com called Sagebrush Swing!. Here's a link: http://www.live365.com/stations/grumpyjenkins
Its free to listen but I think you'll need to register (much like this forum)
The station is a labor of love for me and a way to share some of the great western swing and country jazz I've accumulated over the years. Hope you enjoy it. |
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Lemme know.