The Steel Guitar Forum

Hola Forumites,

Imagine if you will being a clock (flies are yucky) on the wall in the homes of Emmons, Green, Franklin, Hughey, etc. and etc.! Wouldn't you love to hear them when they think no one is listening. I've had the pleasure through my years of sitting and watching great players just pursue their thoughts. Honestly, I believe I may have learned more in that process than anything else. I'm convinced this is important.

That said, I really wish more players would post some of their musical journeys with us. Recently, I sat down with Randy Beavers, Wayne Dahl, Bruce Bouton, and Rusty Rhodes. All in one room. One by one, each took their turn. How inspiring. Lastly, I've recorded great musicians for 20 years. The most inspiring moments usually happen when they "think" the red light is off. Interesting huh? Performance is usually restricting. So I'm taking the first step....here's you a little something to check out. It's just me sitting behind my steel with nothing on mind, not performing, just simply exploring my instrument. I'm curious if this is inspirational or helpful.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IlIPSWkGvjg

Zane, As I said on FB, it's comforting to realize I'm not the only one that does this. It's helpful to me more psycologically. I lose my mind, so to speak, and just play. I can forget about my troubles and worries and when I walk away, I'm good to go. Plus it works out my chops too! It's a great therapy on many levels. I highly recommend it. I'd post some of my sessions but haven't got a video camera yrt. Maybe soon. Thanks so much for your brut honesty. love ya man. Whip

Zane is "back in town" !!!!!

Even a lot of "accomplished" players can "eat their heart out" on this one,,,,,

There might be some common thread amongst all of us steel guitarist. Psychologist likely have a name for it. LOL It's been said we dance to the beat of a different drum!

Another great thread ZK. I've been following/enjoying them, and, appreciate the endeavor of a fresh approach and vision.

I’d be curious to know, too, just how much the extremely upper echelon players do, in fact, “practice”… I’ll go out on a limb and say, that I’d be surprised if it was much, if any.

Guess it would depend on how you define it… (Maybe a future thread 4 u ? - differentiating between exercising vs. practicing vs. semi-mindless soloing)

I’ll draw an analogy from my pool playing days: regarding serious players… for many, all their “practice” ever consists of, is throwing balls out and pocketing them, and for a few (and, depending on their natural ability) that, maybe, all that is req’d to bring their game to higher levels (but, unfortunately, in many cases, this method only serves to reinforce existing flaws in their execution fundamentals). It is acknowledged, by some, that a faster (and, with more likelihood of success) method is to do drills, exercises, and to be constantly working on the process fundamentals…(same is true of other activities - golf, for example).

Very interesting Zane.

a great classical guitarist once said she did not practice, she just played.

I guess I think of "practice" as working on something specific with a specific goal. Improving speed, accuracy etc or even just memorizing a certain passage lick or song for example.

It seems tho once you reach a certain level of proficiency , practice becomes more about exploration and maintenance? is that fair to say?


I do the same on regular guitar, never "practice" just play. On steel I usually do both, I pratice things i havent yet mastered like blocking, chimes, etc. but I also just let go for a while and play.

Very good thoughts indeed! Practicing and learning are two different things. If you are practicing something it means you already know it. You are just simply trying to perfect what you already know. Someone used a golf analogy. Why would golf pros practice? So that they can master the "feel" of the perfect swing and ball strike. Of course, they already know how to do swing. Only when they are trying to learn something new (tweak their swing) will they be in a learning mode. Same thing with a musician. There is a learning phase as well as practicing. Hopefully, both of those never really cease. We should continually be practicing and learning.

Now, the purpose of my thread was really not practicing methods nor learning new things. It was pursuing musical thought and familiarity with your instrument. Not to sound strange but it's about making the music in your soul come through the instrument. This is what I believe that great improvasationalist like Julian Tharpe, Zane Beck, Buddy Emmons and others are in tune with. There's a definite link between the music inside their heart and what is coming through the instrument. Now, what it is fun to me is to watch fellow steel guitar players experiment with this in mind.

Think about it. (And this is preference of course). I would rather watch a talented musician make a mistake by reaching forward in their musical thinking than one who makes a mistake trying to execute the same performance over and over again.

Thanks for your thoughtful reply Zane, much appreciated, and yes i agree with your last sentence very much.

I watched the video and tried to pick out things that I could learn off of it. Your right hand position is interesting as I was under the assumption that a level playing arm is the proper position. I am having a problem with my picking fingers. If I use three picks, all works well. If I try four, sometimes the forth gets in the way. I have been playing psg for two years and watch everyone, trying to get better ideas on how to play and where to play it. Thank you and everyone who puts videos on Youtube as I find that not only is the music stimulating but the educational experience is great ! Thank Zane. Roger

Roger,

I've been asked this several times now about how many finger picks I use. Just two. I once tried it 3 but it just doesn't work for me.

I am curious. What do you see my right arm doing? Likely, I don't even know what the proper position is but let's explore that and perhaps I can analyze this with you. You've got my curiosity up now.

Zane -

I'm gonna get myself in trouble.

You play more in ten seconds than I do in an hour.

It's so much easier to just sit and watch.

Richard

yes I do sit and play like what your doing

just whatever comes into mind and you are very good at it nice plaing Zane

some of the best licks I have learned are from doing just what you are in this video

learning the guitar and your mind
what it can give you

great stuff Mike

Richard,

Where ya been? We need trouble brother! We're counting on you to stir the pot.

Thanks Mike A. for the kind words. I'm just all about discovery! And the only way I've found in discovering new things is to try new things.

It's about time for me to have another jamming in my band of one! See yuns!

Stay tuned,

Zane

Zane King wrote:Roger,

I've been asked this several times now about how many finger picks I use. Just two. I once tried it 3 but it just doesn't work for me.

I am curious. What do you see my right arm doing? Likely, I don't even know what the proper position is but let's explore that and perhaps I can analyze this with you. You've got my curiosity up now.

Zane, I noticed in another video of yours, that your finger picks are almost perpendicular to your fingers.
I have been led to believe that wearing fingers picks this way is “old school” and the way of many of the greats.
My mentor wears his in this manner however as hard as I try I am unable to make it work for me.
He says that is the preferred way to wear finger picks for fast picking, I don’t really know.
I have mine bent quite a bit but not perpendicular as the old guys I know.
Getting to your question about proper right arm/hand position there might be one (proper position).
I have tried the little finger hook over the first string and I have tried the closed fist but so far I try to keep my right hand as relaxed as possible. I hope that is a good thing.
Thanks for your posting and prompting discussion on issues that are thought provoking.
Michael

Michael R.

Actually I just re-posted this video that shows the form of my picks.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dyk77ZnFtyY

Honestly, I have no idea what led me to do this. Of course, I started at 9 years of age and the bending of the picks was likely something that just evolved as my hands grew. I totally do not understand how "pick blocking" and the "thumb/middle" finger really is that effective with speed picking. Jeff Newman of course was a real advocate for this styling. Jeff as done more for steel guitar than I could ever hope to. Yet, I do feel if speed picking is important to a player then the method that I'm using is more effective. I have never studied Doug Jernigan (probably should) but there are similarities to what he and I do regarding speed.

So what you were referring to in my right arm is actually the positioning of my hand. I do feel that we have to be flexible in this area. I do not teach that my way is superior or even appropriate. Yet I think it does work.

Good conversation!

Zane

Love that bluesey sound, Zane! I wish I could play like that! My mind and my fingers are real slow -- like the "clock time" of my brain is slow or something. I can't hear, or think, or move, fast enough to do speed picking. On guitar or steel. Never could. Probably never will. And I've been doing nothing else but playing music for the last 46 years! But give us a bass player and a drummer and maybe a nice funky blues piano player, and we'd still have some fun! You could play circles around me, but I can feel the spirit, and could throw some of it back at you in a nice heartfelt way. I try to play like a singer, slow and soulful, shaping each note. But I sure love what you are doing! And I love that improvisational spirit! That's what music is all about, in my opinion... Live long and healthy, brother!

Barry H. - thanks for kind post! Yeah, it'd be great to hang on a tune with you for while! Music is language and universal one at that. It may even be a language that we likely use for eternal purposes. I know of very little that captures a soul like music. The instrument is man-made but at the heart of our creativity there is a tremendous gift. So all that said, even with my golf analogies and such, steeling is not a competitive sport. It's a beautiful language that connects us all! Keep on picking.

Great post and fun video, Zane, I'm certainly glad to know I'm not alone in spending long periods of time pursuing "stream of consciousness" on the PSG.

Hi Zane thanks for clearing up the confusion on how many picks you use. From what I see, you dig your thumb pick in and to me it looks more like on a forward roll you pull. eg. index finger pulls middle finger forward and so on. Your sound is not thin because of this. And how do you manage to get that thumb pick in so far and be so fast ! Amazing LoL. I have been a bass player for many years. I have never used my thumb, to flam pick and when I use my fingers I pull sometimes so hard I bleed. But that's my sound. Have you ever tried blunter thumb pick so that it is closer to the string ? Like a thumb pick that has been filled down ? And on a 12 string would it be fuller if a person used three thumb picks? Please, I don't mean to sound rude, I have followed a few teaching meotheds and everyone is so different but they all seem to make sense when your new to PSG. I know my conversation has been long winded but I don't have a teacher where I live unless I use chat. Thank a bunch Zane, Roger

Sorry three finger picks, LoL. Roger

Roger H.

I've tried a number of techniques with my thumb and such. Here is a link to some rhythm techniques that I'm working on.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b5x6ethdBSE

Also, here is another video where I use a flat pick for rhythm techniques. I'm really enjoying this method. Especially for creating good rhythm parts.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mnqSI0oT6Iw

I suppose my right hand technique would lend itself somewhat to three finger picks. I'll give it shot. Why not?

I have been thinking about your picking arm position. That really is the same position as when your arm is wrapped around a bass or six string. I have to try that : ) Is your bar hand pinky placed so that when you decend it is the next logical place for that chord ? And you seem to have many different styles to choose from. Your emotion is drawn into your playing. I had a well known conductor once tell me, be still, you will get more out of your voice. Do you think that someone that shows emotion and involvement in the song phyically looses on the voicing ? Some players can just sit there and let there music pour out through the notes without any physical involvement. Others just gotta let it go
thanks Zane, Roger

P.S. I think the audience likes a showman.

Roger - steel guitar is probably one of the more physically engaging instruments known to man. The conductor has a point if technique is totally be comprised. However, emotion is one of the primary sources of musical expression. It's interesting how some humans can be taught to read music and correctly play an instrument yet they may play with very little conviction or emotion. I promise you there are many musicians who make money playing that know nothing of this "emotionally charged" expression.

I spent many years playing piano at my church. I was the band leader. I can promise you that occasionally I would get so lost and caught up in what I was playing that I couldn't have told you my name. It's a strange feeling really. I've done this on steel guitar as well. It's a transcendence really that I feel honestly is a gift from the Creator. I realize that likely makes me a "nut" job to many folks but I promise you there is a level that can be reached in musical expression that is just simply beyond understanding. I'm sure I just lost about 90% of those reading along. But as my daughter always says....you gotta love me.

Zane -

You suggested that I stir the pot just a tad so I've dragged out my big spoon and here we go.

You are an innovator - and a stimulating and interesting one at that. Innovators in most any discipline are few and far between. It's so much easier to just go with the flow and accept that which is considered the norm. One of the "norms" regarding the PSG is the use of two finger picks. "That's the way it's been so, by God, that's the way it's gonna be!"

I beg to differ - and strongly so.

In the early 60's I began the study of the classic guitar. Right hand technique utilized the thumb and three fingers. Most folks know this. When I plunged - with some trepidation - into the playing of the PSG I, like a gazillion others, began with the stereotypical thumb and two finger picks. As you well know, my musical ear embraces full, extended chords. These chords were, for the most part, unnatainable with just a thumb and two finger picks. The dim bulb between my ears glowed with the realization that I had - at my disposal - that added appendage which I had used in previous study. You know what happened.

I slipped another pick on the ring finger of my right hand. Gone - in part - was the necessity of "raking" a couple of strings with the thumb. Further, the ready acquisition of four-note chords was at my disposal in addition to the ability to still "rake" a couple of strings when I felt it necessary to satisfy my ear sonically with even fuller chords.

Oh, yes! - There was a "re-learning" process - sometimes a little painful - sometimes a little frustrating but, nonetheless, bearing fruit ever so slowly but surely. My facility with the fourth pick grows with every practice session. I'm even working that fourth pick into scale runs in addition to the obvious arpeggios that one would play.

Now, please - don't anyone jump all over me and make the declaration that three picks are all that is needed to make pretty music and that there have been hundreds of PSG players who have stimulated our musical senses with just those three. One must keep in mind that, for the most part, we do not play chords, per se, but, rather, chord fragments. This begs the simple question: - If a two, or three-note chord fragment is sonically pleasing, then would not a four or five-note chord or fragment - color tones - be even more pleasing when judiciously applied in context? I know that to be true and have a difficult time understanding the closed-mindedness of those who would rebel at the mere idea of adding a fourth pick.

If I have piqued the interest of anyone reading this then I will remind you that - should you place that fourth pick on your finger - you will immediately revert back to PSG101 with regards that finger. It WILL feel awkward. It WILL feel as if it doesn't belong. It WILL feel completely out of step with the others. You'll also find that palm blocking becomes more difficult due to the change in attitude of your right hand. Pick blocking will almost become the norm - in addition to your nose. And yet - with practice - just like it was when you first began - the facility will improve and you'll begin to explore things not found in Winnie Winston's book or any other method of learning. You may very well become addicted to your new-found sonic palette and, like me, never turn back.

I can only suggest the following: - Try it, you just might like it.

Respectfully,

Richard

What Richard said, it's one thumb and three fingers for me, it's hard enough to cover the lower strings with only one thumb, I can't imagine trying to manage the rest of the guitar with only two fingers....