Cabinet drop,,how much is too much ?

Richard Tipple · From: Ohio, USA

In another thread I was asking about cabinet drop compensation. I used the method Jean Yves has and
I am satisfied with my new tuning numbers,,sounds really tweaked up good Smile

I was curious about the drop on my Rains SD10,,the 4th string has a drop of 5.7 cents with the A & B down.

Just curious of others who have measured thier cabinet drop,, how much ?
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Tim Heidner · From: Groves, TX

I measured 13 cents on my 6th string with A pedal and F lever. Crying or Very sad

not a Rains, though.

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

Well didn't you know that there was no such thing as cabinet drop, until electronic tuners came about? Confused

Huh?

Yeah right! Mad

13 cents. Wow. That would drive me crazy. I am extremely sensitive to relative pitch changes, mostly as a result of cabinet drop and/or tuning JI. So I would HAVE to do something about that, or take an axe to it.

Since I don' wan' to see ya do that, I do hope you can find a cure dear brother. Smile

By the way, I can assure you that cabinet drop (AND raise) was noticed by many of us, long before tuners came out. The problem IS real and should have been cured by now, just as string rattle at the lower frets, should have been long since a thing of the past.

But as long as it doesn't bother the masses, (or that is what I have been told), do not look for any relief any time soon. Wink

c.
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richard burton · From: Britain

13 cents would be intolerable for me.

I would have to put a wound sixth on there, and use my previously discussed method of tuning out cabinet drop.

Kevin Hatton · From: Buffalo, N.Y.

I've NEVER seen a guitar with 5.7 cents cabinet drop on the 4th string. Something's wrong.

Tim Heidner · From: Groves, TX

I'm hoping I found a cure with the Mullen that's in the mail. Mr. Green

Robert Murphy · From: West Virginia

I measured 10 cents on my 6th string with the C pedal down raising 4&5. My theory is not cabinet drop but axle deflection in the nut. The extra pressure from the raises presses down on the loose fitting axle to lower the G# string. The cure would be to ream the nut for the next larger size drill rod and have gauged rollers made giving a stiffer plane for the rollers to work from. Please comment.

Storm Rosson · From: Silver City, NM. USA

I remember being told that the human ear for most peeps cannot discern a change of 2% or less, seems to be reasonably accurate according to my peterson....at least to my old ears,,,,Stormy Winking

Georg Sørtun · From: Mandal, Agder, Norway

Last I tested my stiffened-up Dekley S10(TT) I measured less than 1 cent detuning on string 4 and just below 1.5 cent detuning on string 8, when A+B pedals were pushed. That produces audible beating under test conditions, but is quite acceptable since it gets played-out under real conditions. Don't think up to about 2.5 cent detuning/bodydrop should bother anyone under real conditions.

My old MSA S12U has around 10 cent bodydrop, thus is barely playable.

Observed once that a PSG (not mine) with exceptionally low measured detuning/bodydrop (below 1 cent I was told), while sounding perfectly stable for string 4 still produced ear-disturbing beating between string 1 and 2 - with no "compensators" involved. So our ears seem to be able to pick up quite minute variations, and the methods used to counteract bodydrop still don't seem to solve all potential bodydrop issues.

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

Tim Heidner · From: Groves, TX

Georg Sørtun · From: Mandal, Agder, Norway

Tim, yes, I modified it in the early -90s...
http://www.gunlaug.no/msc/smc-090617.html
...for improved tone and stability.

Earnest Bovine · From: Los Angeles CA USA

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

Earnest,

I really don't think so dear friend.

Here is my thinking:

The counterforce ass'y works on the root cause of the problem. Which is the cabinet bowing due to the stress of excessive pounds of force; due to the strings being stretched when pedals and knee levers are engaged.

Since I simply do not see a roller nut having anything other than a very miniscule affect; so the major cause of the problem could NOT be solved by doing as our friend suggested, that I quoted and responded to.

In other words, IF the roller nut was the major cause of the problem, I see NO way how the conterforce at the changer could solve the problem, because of how it works.

Note: Emmons counterforce does NOT move the changer, as some beleive. NOR is the axle flexing as many suggest. Ron Lashley Sr made that very clear in any number of written and oral statements. (Note the picture below and read the statements by Ron Sr on that sales' brochure.

The reason the "CF" anchors at the changer, is to act as a full cabinet counter "bow"; to the bowing of the cabinet; due to added stress on the cabinet; due to the pulling of given strings.

Thus, I can not see how this "counter bow" would correct a roller nut problem, and NOT make matters worse, since I do not believe the nut roller is the problem.

But of course, I could be dead wrong, and I stand corrected if I am incorrect. But thanks for asking Ernest,

c.
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chris ivey · From: california (deceased)

by all means, let us know how your new mullen responds to the tuner test. since everyone lately has been touting the G2 as the best steel in the universe, i am curious about it's cabinet drop.

Butch Pytko · From: Orlando, Florida, USA

For years I've known about cabinet drop being roughly in the -1 to -1.5 cent area for most ALL guitars. I'm really finding it hard to believe the claims mentioned in the -5.7 to -13 cent drop area. First of all, it would be VERY NOTICEABLE to the human ear. Secondly, I've never heard of ANY guitar being THAT BAD! If there is--it's definitely a new one on me! There has to be something very wrong in the set-up's underneath.

Richard Tipple · From: Ohio, USA

Butch,, I am confused a little now

I have been told by a few that 5 cents drop is not out of the norm for cabinet drop. I have made sure all end plate screws & all screws on this steel are tight. And I still have a dead on 5.7 cent drop on the 4th string Confused

I keep the changer & all parts of the underside, well lubricated with Tri-Flow.

I went to the Jean Yves tuning chart, entered the 5.7 cent drop & tuned up per his tuning numbers. I am well satisfied with the results of his numbers & my steel sounds dead on as far as tuning now Smile

I guess one could say I can ignore the drop if it sounds good to me now,,right ? But it still makes me wonder what causes the drop in the first place?

You mention there could be a set up problem . What should I look for as far as a set up problem causing the drop ? You have me wondering now .

Thanks for your input Smile

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Butch Pytko · From: Orlando, Florida, USA

Richard,
In a way, I don't feel qualified enough to comment any further. In the years I've owned different guitars, I've only dealt with D-10's. I reread your original thread & I see you have a SD-10. That would be the smaller cabinet than the larger single neck cabinet with a pad? I'm wondering if it could be something as simple as SMALLER CABINET MEANS MORE CABINET DROP? Thru the years I more or less taught myself how to change set-ups on both necks, move knee levers, & install new knee levers. It was trial & error. But, I can't think of a time when I messed-up so bad, that it created MORE CABINET DROP. Anyway, if everything looks like it is hooked-up correctly & the pedals/knees work OK, then I'm at a loss if there is something wrong. The best thing to do & I highly recommend this, is talk to the guitar/builder himself. No one knows better than the builder about the characteristics of his particular brand. If it turns out to be the given cabinet drop of your guitar, then I have LEARNED something as well as you!

CrowBear Schmitt · From: Ariege, - PairO'knees, - France

my question is : " what does one consider a reasonable amount of cab drop ? "
on a modern day psg i'd think 5 would be too much
my 2006 Zum D10 has -3 & it's got a cab drop deepvice on E9
i tend to agree w; Storm R that the human ear does'nt hear a 2% drop
(at least i can't)

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

Well let's see what is normal!

How about everyone who cares, and reads this, take a quality tuner:

1. Connect it to your guitar's jack. You need no amp for this test.

2. Tune the 6th string (the one that is usually the worst when it comes to cabinet drop), to dead straight up 440.

3. Pick the string, and engage the C pedal.

4. Write down what the drop is, of that string, in "cents".

Be careful; and I mean absolutely NO disrespect; but in my 45 years of training technicians to read meters, MOST still could not iterpolate* when reading same.

This is true also of reading accurately, inches and feet and parts of same, on a ruler.

Make sure when you say 5 cents, for example, that it IS indeed 5 cents. Again no disrespect, but facts cannot be changed by "political correctness". Very Happy

I will go and do it now on my Excel and Emmons LeGrande III, and post later what I get.

Please indicate whether you used a needle, or direct readout tuner. This is important.

Thanks for participating.

c.

* In this context, interpolate means to "see" numbers that are not written on a scale. IE, the needle is somewhere beteen 5 and 10. You must then "see" exactly what it is.

This can be done easily using the human eye, by continuting to "halve". Like so...

If the needle is exactly half way between the 5 and 10 marks, then you "see" exactly 7.5. You derive this by dividing 5 (10-5=5 units of cents), by 2 (one half). It equals 2.5 and then add that back into 5. Which equals 7.5.

Then halve that and you "see" exactly 6.25; (7.5-5=2.5 divided by 2 equals 1.25 added back to 5 equals 6.25) and so on.

It takes a little practice, but one can get VERY accurate; believe it or not. I have had a few technicians that got so good at it, that it defied what they would have believed, when we checked it with a digital meter, with direct readout. Believe it or not.

Now of course if you have a digital read out tuner in "cents" then only a moron would not be able to tell what the tuner was saying. Rolling Eyes

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Richard Tipple · From: Ohio, USA

Carl I did as you said and I have a 7 cents drop on the 6th string, using my Peterson Strobe Confused

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

Richard,

Thanks for keeping it simple and to the point. I, of all people, should talk huh? Confused

Oh well!

Your reading is NOT unexpected. I have not had a chance to go downstairs, but I suspect it is going to come in even worse on my Emmons LeGrande III; after I have measured it with and THEN without the counterforce feature.

c.
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A broken heart + † = a new heart.

Alan Harrison · From: Murfreesboro Tennessee, USA

According to my Peterson Tuner, my pre G2 Mullen, has just a hair under 1.5 Cents cabinet drop. However I don't think my old ears could hear it if it were 5 or 6 cents.
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Earnest Bovine · From: Los Angeles CA USA

I don't think anyone would be bothered by cabinet drop if all the strings dropped by the same amount. But if course they don't, and some of the intervals get ugly.

Billy Murdoch · From: Glasgow, Scotland, U.K.

Tested on Zum D 10 using Peterson tuner. 1cent.
Billy

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