Teaching Method -- Newman or Adams ? ?

[George Crickmore]

I have a friend that wants to learn pedal steel. I told him the right hand is the first start. I am no teacher so here is the question.

Jeff Newman drills palm blocking while Mickey Adams drills pick blocking. I find my self using both.

Which one would uou guys reccomend I learned the Jeff Newman way but Mickey Adams has some great stuff too.

So wich one guys?

[Jim Cohen]

Invest time learning both. There are situations when you need each one. It's not an "either/or" question.

[George Crickmore]

Invest time learning both. There are situations when you need each one. It's not an "either/or" question.

Well like I said I use both. I asking if you had to choose one to START out with ,,then wich would it be?

[Jim Cohen]

I would start out working on both.

[George Crickmore]

I would start out working on both.

Thanks for the opinion but thats like throwing him to the wolves,, Way too much info at once in my opinion.

[Don Drummer]

I would start on the one that feels the most natural. Use the one that feels the most comfortable.
In order to do this you will have to try one or the other. So in this way Jim is correct. When you decide stay with that one. The other will manifest itself somewhere along the way on your journey. Remember that the objective is to stop one note before playing the next. Don D

[Bob Hoffnar]

I would say pick blocking. In my experience with new students it is much more natural and easy. Just don't call it anything and make a big deal about it. Pick the note and then put your pick back down on the string so you can pick the note again if you want. Classical guitar players call it a rest stroke if I remember right. Basicly you don't want to lift your hand up so you need to look to find the strings again. If you put the pick back down on the string you are already there. Now if he finds that some other strings are ringing have him lower his palm a little to dampen the strings and there you have palm blocking. They both work together.

[Jim Cohen]

IMHO, if you're gonna be a steel player, you're gonna have to learn how to do more than one thing at a time, so you might as well start early. It's all part of natural selection, y'know.

To me, it's kinda like someone who wants to learn guitar asking "should I start by learning chords or notes?" I would say, work on them both simultaneously and you'll eventually get there.

Just my 2 cents, FWIW (1 cent?)

[Larry Bell]

The answer to this question depends on whom you ask.

Ask a pickblocker and you'll get "Adams" (or Joe Wright or Paul Franklin)
Ask a palmblocker and you'll get "Newman" (or most other teachers)

Ask someone who does both you'll get Jim's answer (same as mine)
Learn them both

If it's too confusing to work on both in the same practice session, pick one. It really doesn't matter which comes first. Just do it accurately and with authority.

Many guitarists play with fingers or with a flatpick -- and sometimes both. Upright bass players use a bow and fingers. Those techniques are often learned at the same time without undue confusion.

Learning to block with the picks and palm of the right hand and also using the left hand techniques for blocking we discussed in a recent thread are all important for those who have not already mastered those techniques. Different students will learn those techniques at a different pace and in a different order. Learning: It's ALL GOOD.

[C Dixon]

The answer to this question depends on whom you ask.

Ask a pickblocker and you'll get "Adams" (or Joe Wright or Paul Franklin)
Ask a palmblocker and you'll get "Newman" (or most other teachers)

Ask someone who does both you'll get Jim's answer (same as mine)
Learn them both

If it's too confusing to work on both in the same practice session, pick one. It really doesn't matter which comes first. Just do it accurately and with authority.

Many guitarists play with fingers or with a flatpick -- and sometimes both. Upright bass players use a bow and fingers. Those techniques are often learned at the same time without undue confusion.

Learning to block with the picks and palm of the right hand and also using the left hand techniques for blocking we discussed in a recent thread are all important for those who have not already mastered those techniques. Different students will learn those techniques at a different pace and in a different order. Learning: It's ALL GOOD.

Well stated Larry,

The original question was, "Which is better?"

I would suggest that "era" has to play a major role in the answer.

Almost everyone (with few exceptions) taught "palm blocking" when I started to learn in the 40's. JB was adamant about it, and as far as I can recall, I never knowingly heard Jerry ever "pick" block; and many, including I, say that Jerry was the greatest lap steel player who ever graced the instruement.

BUT.........................

Jerry did not choose to play like, say a Paul Franklin, or Jay D Maness, etc, etc.

As time marches on, things change, and while PF is not the first player to use pick blocking, he is probably the most notable; because of his unprecedented accomplishments using the manuever.

We live now (sadly, IMO) in a rapid-fire pace in almost everything we do. Note musical videos and TV shows. They can NOT stay long enough on a single scene for one to even begin to "smell the roses".

They want it fast and they we want it now, and if they do not get it fast as a "speeding bullet", they become bored. This all in stark contrast to days of yesteryear. Where most TOOK the time to smell the roses. Watch old B & W movies. Kids today would be bored stiff.

Or as one small child said to his mommy, when she listened to '40's type music,

"Dat moozik is detmental to my heeuhwing!"

Back then....

Most listened and waited patiently for their turn, and NEVER interrupted.

This is no more. MOST conversations today involve the listener impatiently waiting for the speaker to shut up, so they can become the speaker, or the WILL interrupt! and so on.

So PF and JD and many others fit right in, in fulfilling this fast paced quest. Pick blocking then allows that to work, and work well!

As Joe Wright said to me once when we both were watching a video of a steel player, playing a fast tune, using "palm" blocking, "He is wasting time on lifting his palm. There is NO need to do that!"

I agree.

But I have a serious problem. Try as I may, I simply can NOT do it. It seems to be an act that defies what my eyes are seeing. For example:

I have some videos with JD Maness tearing a song UP. Like the later recording of "hello Trouble" on the "Desert Rose" DVD. And it looks like he is not even exerting an effort. Nor does it appear that his fingers are keeping up with those fast as lightning, clear as a bell, staccato notes coming out of his amp! Blows my mind.

This goes for Mike Bagwell, Mike Smith and yes the greatest pick blocker of them all, Paul Franklin.

So, I believe the answer to this thread's author is:

1. Pick Blocking IF you are a "new ager".

2. Palm Blocking IF you wish to stop and smell the roses.

OR.....if you are both (ever rarer today), then by all means.......

"To each his own."

c.

[Zane King]

Who said you had to block the strings?

Believe it or not I have never worked on any method. Seriously! Now some would call it talent I suppose but I remember spending countless hours as young kid just trying to make the strings sound correct. I understand the need for instruction but I also think you just have to develop your own technique to some degree. I compare it to a golf swing. Sure there are those who can help you. Yet there are those that can really mess you up too. It's a delicate thing really. To me, that's what practicing is all about. Just be sure to carve out time to develop your own techniques. That's my two cents worth.

One more thing....Joe Wright does indeed have some interesting concepts for the beginning stage of learning steel guitar.

[Clete Ritta]

Pick blocking will be harder than palm blocking to learn at first.
As a fairly new player I started with Adams, because I discovered him on YouTube before I had even heard of Newman. I still have a lot of work to do in the string blocking department, but I use any means necessary.
I like Zane's view that you'll discover how to block strings your way eventually. As long as it sounds the way you want, who cares whether its palm or pick? Any way you learn gets easier in time with practice.

Clete

[Bo Legg]

I think you should learn pick blocking to learn to play PSG.
I mean here the whole ball of wax that goes with the pick blocking which incorporates blocking with the fingers and thumb of the Bar hand, using the bar to block.
It also includes blocking with the fingers, finger picks, thumb and thumb picks all of the picking hand.
Then you put all this together to properly block using the complete pick blocking method.
By the time you get all this down you will have put in a lot of woodshed time, understand the meaning of quality practice and be a completely dedicated disciplined player.
You will also during the learning process have played about every grip there is about a million times and played a few 100 licks in about every position on the neck about a million times.
After that it's a lot of hard work on your ear training and practice, practice and practice.
I promise you after you learn the complete pick blocking method every thing else will be a piece of cake.

Bo Legg

[Guido Hausmann]

zane, i think i got it:
you're just playing that fast that one couldn't even hear a single note?!

[Bobby Hearn]

Im with Zane. I had to sit down at my guitar to see how I do it and I use both methods but utilize pick blockin a lot more than palm. Just depending on the situation and what feels more natural.

[Mickey Adams]

I personally don't think theres a difference...Blocking is blocking, and can be accomplished in many subtle ways...I would venture to say that we all might consider..."right hand blocking vs left hand blocking"
Categorizing me as a "pick blocker"...only...would be a misnomer....How about "back of the right thumb blocker"?...Or "Free RH Pinky blocker"...I use these as well..I know that my approach concentrating on scale patterns leaves some of these techniques to the imagination..But the key is LISTENING to what your playing....Isnt it?...Bo's got the "BIG" picture

[Ray McCarthy]

I agree with Mick--right thumb, pinky, heel of the hand, palm--I don't really know which one I'm using at any given time unless I think about it. (I'm not all that good at any of 'em though.)

[Jack Stoner]

I went to a Jeff Newman semminar on pick blocking in Kansas City, Mo about 82 or 83. Paul Franklin was with Jeff and was there to reinforce and demonstrate his pick blocking technique. So Jeff is not 100% palm blocking. Jeff noted in the Semminar that he does both.

Being of the "old school" (lap steel first) as brother Dixon notes, I started out with palm blocking. I do some pick blocking but probably more palm blocking.

I don't see this as which blocking technique to start with, I see this as what instructional material should someone start with. Jeff Newman set the standard so I would say start with Jeff. It's not that other material is not good or revelent, just that it was Jeff that set the bar for pedal steel instruction.

I'm teaching my wife pedal steel right now and the one big thing that new students MUST learn first is the fret board and the pedals/knee levers. Obviously left hand bar technique and right hand picking technique is very critical, but the most important step for a newbie, aside from tuning the guitar, is to learn the fretboard (chords) and what strings the pedals and knee levers change.

[Franklin]

I suggest telling him that there are several techniques for blocking strings.......Explain to him that you'll start with one at a time so as to not over burden his concentration as a beginner......Tell him you'll show him some other techniques later on........I suggest palm blocking as Newman taught......... With pick blocking, when it comes to getting beyond the forward and backward roll or three string groupings the two pickless fingers have to move in complete unison to the middle finger to make this technique complete......Most folks that experiment with this technique are unaware of the pickless fingers importance.........As with any instrument, developing the correct position of the hands is beneficial for the bigger picture.

Whatever technique is chosen it is crucial to be able to move across all 10 or 12 strings randomly without having to remain in a three string ascending movement.....Relying on the ease of mastering the three finger roll is cool, but it is also a musical stumbling block to overcome, because most of music compositions and improvisations are written beyond those types of scale patterns. Playing music requires a clean technique that allows the player to skip strings randomly..........Both techniques work equally well.

Most players assume that when they hear something real fast they are hearing pick blocking.....Although this forum has posters who are helping to advance this idea, it is Not true!

Jay Dee, Mike Smith, Randy Reinhard, Terry Crisp, Tommy White, to name a few of the many great speed players all play very, very, fast with palm blocking.........

Also Pick blocking has been used forever as an extension to the palm blocking technique...........It was not until I started teaching at a steel store in Michigan that I discovered I never palm blocked.......Because I was self taught from the age of 9, I was not aware that I had evolved into solely using this technique......Learning from records and the radio, it turns out that I was lucky to not see how players held their hands for those fast riffs I was after.........At 14 I discovered through a students observation, I was not blocking like I was teaching him to do....I had really never watched myself play and I always assumed I palm blocked........After moving to Nashville I became aware that there were no pick blockers besides me.......By that I mean there was no player who used it as a complete technique.....I was the odd man out.......There were a few who mixed it up weighing heavily towards the palm blocking side..........None of those players relied on it solely........The reason Jeff taught the palm blocking technique as firmly as he did was because of what I just told you.......He knew when students asked him about pick blocking, that I was the black sheep example..........He and I agreed on this topic.........I have reluctantly stayed away from teaching fingering positions for licks and telling folks pick blocking is "the way" to go, It is "A way" to go........Get a clean note any way possible.........Be aware of the various techniques........Let the ears be the judge.......Just because it doesn't work for me does not mean it will not work great for someone else.......Practice, music, not technique.........Paul

[Larry Bell]

Thanks for sharing your unique perspective, Paul. I can't tell you how much it means for you to enter into our (sometimes petty) explorations of the how's and why's of this crazy instrument.

You told me many years ago to concentrate on pick or palm blocking and not to mix them up. I understood your reason but never could do it (pick block exclusively). I took some lessons from Mike and watched his amazing technique close-up and concluded that sometimes -- even an 'exclusive palmblocker' -- will just lay the picks down on the strings to block. Or they will pickblock kinda by accident. That's actually how I started slowly becoming familiar with pickblocking. I had a friend who was a natural pickblocker in the 70s -- some folks just ARE -- and he was a big fan of yours. I played some shows with Joe Wright and got to do a jam session sitting right beside him -- that too was an education. I am most comfortable pickblocking on adjacent strings and palmblocking wider distances and chords.

Also, the 'half-mute' technique you'll hear guys like Jimmie Crawford or Russ Hicks do -- some of the banjo roll type stuff -- is tough to pull off only pickblocking. I still think most teachers underplay bar hand blocking -- thumb, finger, angling the bar. It all works together to allow you to play a fluid phrase.

Bottom line here is to be musical. If you play a musically pleasing phrase at the proper tempo and it sounds right your technique is fine. If not you need to work on it. If it sounds right it is right.

[Mickey Adams]

Hows that for Info we can all use!...

[b0b]

I teach a simple exercise for each, both in the same lesson. I tell my students to practice both exercises. The important thing is to have the strings under your full control. It's hard to do that exclusively with one method or the other. Hard but not impossible.

Palm blocking is the easier method when you want to hear short rests between the notes. Pick blocking is the easier method when you want a note to continue until the instant that the next note is played. You can hear the difference if you compare the speed picking styles of Lloyd Green and Paul Franklin.

[C Dixon]

I teach a simple exercise for each, both in the same lesson. I tell my students to practice both exercises. The important thing is to have the strings under your full control. It's hard to do that exclusively with one method or the other. Hard but not impossible.

Palm blocking is the easier method when you want to hear short rests between the notes. Pick blocking is the easier method when you want a note to continue until the instant that the next note is played. You can hear the difference if you compare the speed picking styles of Lloyd Green and Paul Franklin.

Well stated b0b. And dead on IMO.

c.

[Bent Romnes]

Palm blocking is the easier method when you want to hear short rests between the notes. Pick blocking is the easier method when you want a note to continue until the instant that the next note is played. You can hear the difference if you compare the speed picking styles of Lloyd Green and Paul Franklin.

b0b, That was well said with a few words, and Right on.

"Pick blocking is the easier method when you want a note to continue until the instant that the next note is played." Me being from the old school, meaning learning from Jeff and listening to mostly palm blocking. It grew to be a favorite of mine personally, because of the difference in sound from pick blocking. There is a substantial difference; the note gets chopped off with the palm; the notes seem to run into each other with the pick blocking.
No doubt that both styles should be taught. Which one do you expose the student to first? I think they could be taught in unison. But the palm is needed for so much more than speed picking so I would start the straight basics with palm blocking.

[b0b]

Bent, as I said, I introduce both methods in the same lesson. I don't stress one over the other. I think that most players use both, whether they do it consciously or not.