Tuning: am I crazy?

Ian Sutton · Post by **Ian Sutton** » 3 Sep 2010 4:53 pm

I've been reading a lot lately about tuning methods. I know the topic has been discussed to death so forgive me if I'm being repetitive but...

I tried the newman chart this week and it sounds pretty good, but I normally just tune to my Boss pedal tuner at 440 and the guitar is in tune with itself and the band. So what am I missing?

Jim Bob Sedgwick · Post by **Jim Bob Sedgwick** » 3 Sep 2010 5:10 pm

Absolutely NOTHING ! If the guitar sounds in tune with the band, it is in tune. I don't care what the meter says. If it sounds out, IT IS!!!

Ryan Barwin · Post by **Ryan Barwin** » 3 Sep 2010 5:48 pm

I do the same thing...tune to equal temperament (also on a Boss pedal tuner). It sounds right, to my ears. Nothing wrong with that.

Robert Harper · Post by **Robert Harper** » 3 Sep 2010 6:18 pm

The opportunity to sit in one of the epic arguments of the forum "Which Tunning Method Is the best" Maybe it will breakout on this thread and you will see the heat and energy that is used to try to convince each other is the best method to tune an instrument. What has always been missing in these heated unwinable circular argument is how does the crowd like the music, thats what sells, along with a little sex if possible. I bet the best tuning method has a very limited audience.

J D Sauser · Post by **J D Sauser** » 3 Sep 2010 7:47 pm

Reminds me my first experience with a "tuner". When I started out, once I knew what tuning I was trying to tune up to, I tuned "E" to the guitar player and the rest up as I thought it sounded good.
I knew NOTHING about ET and JI, I didn't even know there were different ways to tune at all.
So, the day I got my first steel with pedal on it, I thought that an electronic tuner would be a nice addition.
I tuned all notes straight to the tuner (no Newman chart, I didn't even know who Newman was or that he existed at all)... the needle with Swiss exactitude on the "0". And I could not understand why, suddenly I HATED the way my guitar sounded! Finally, still ignorant of what had happened, I decided to throw the tuner into the trash after calling it all sorts of names I can't post here, since this is a family Forum.
Al Gore invented the Internet

and I inadvertently JI

Coming back to the OP's concerns:
Newman's chart is a Just Intonation chart, where most prominently, Major thirds are tune considerably FLAT (almost a quarter note). Plaid ALONE it all sound perfectly in-tune with it-self (It's great for bedroom heroes!).
The problems can occur when one tries to fit an instrument into a group of instruments which are tuned "straight up"/Equal Temperament... the JI-tuned instrument may sound "flat" (especially some pedaled inversions which may be built up with a new root using a JI-M3rd.).
The art of the player is to know where the "flat" spots are and which the flattest inversions are and to counteract that "flattness" with the bar (vibrato and placement not so visually correct ON the fret but adjusted to what the ear asks for (playing a tad to the right of the fret).

Some professional player, who obviously play a lot with other musicians, have resorted to tune straight up (ET) or to a compromise in between ET and JI.

... J-D.

David Nugent · Post by **David Nugent** » 4 Sep 2010 2:07 am

Ian....If I am not mistaken, the reasoning behind the Newman tuning as well as the tuning method listed in Scotty's Mel Bay instructional material was an attempt to compensate for the cabinet drop inherent in many guitars being built in the period in which these methods were developed.

Ray McCarthy · Post by **Ray McCarthy** » 4 Sep 2010 2:20 am

I can't stand the way my psg sounds tuned ET, even with the band. I agree with JD that sometimes you have to compensate a little for other instruments, but I find that to be automatic (in my case) and the band members love what I do. The problem I have with ET is--1st, it is impossible to tune ET by ear (because it doesn't sound right), and 2nd, it would be impossible for harmony singers (of which I am one) to intentionally sing three-part harmony in ET--they automatically strive for JI because that's what sounds the best. The psg is essentially a harmony machine.

Franklin · Post by **Franklin** » 4 Sep 2010 4:45 am

Ian,

I didn't know what the terms JI, ET, & MT meant until about ten years ago........Most Pro's tune to an altered version of JI......Country recording work is 99.9% JI.

I believe the Jeff Newman chart was taken from Lloyd Green's guitar.....If you don't trust your ears that is a good place to start.

Pick a method that doesn't offend your ears......The way you tune will not determine wether you're in tune with a band......The way you hear, will.

.....Remember this fact......Vibrato takes a note sharp and flat of its tuned pitch......All the stringed instruments in the bands we work with use vibrato at varied speeds.....Hearing beyond vibrations or beats to find the bands center of pitch is crucial to playing in tune.

Paul

Ian Sutton · Post by **Ian Sutton** » 4 Sep 2010 5:35 am

Thanks for all your replies. I'm certainly not trying to start another edition of the forum's favorite soap "Which tuning method is better" I'm just trying to make sense of it all.

When my MSA is tuned straight up to ET, it sounds fine to my ears. When tuned to JI via Newman, it sounds a little nicer when practicing alone, though I've yet to try it out in a live situation, so I can't say that it would or wouldn't clash with the band being tuned to ET.

It's all so confusing.

Gene Jones · Post by **Gene Jones** » 4 Sep 2010 7:46 am

I had the same experience as JD with my first tuner.

I was so proud of that $175.00 Korg, that I took it to work the same day and tuned every note on both necks straight-up with the tuner, confident that I would never be out of tune again. The result was gosh-awful, I had never been so far out of tune in all my years of playing.

It was so bad that even a drunk came over and told me that "Them guitars need a tuning."

I've never trusted tuners since, and if a note doesn't sound right, I don't hesitate to retune to my ear.

Years later I heard Jeff Newman say, "tuners lie", so I was glad to hear that someone with his experience felt the same way.

Danny Bates · Post by **Danny Bates** » 4 Sep 2010 8:08 am

Ian, you're getting a ton of good stuff in this thread. 30 years ago I used to tune straight up and I can remember wondering the same thing.

When I first got a hold of a Jeff Newman chart I thought "How crazy is this? These guys are gonna tune some strings this far off and think they're going to be able to play in tune? I tuned my guitar with a Conn strobe tuner to Jeff's chart and I thought it sounded terrible.

J D Sauser said:

The art of the player is to know where the "flat" spots are and which the flattest inversions are and to counteract that "flattness" with the bar (vibrato and placement not so visually correct ON the fret but adjusted to what the ear asks for (playing a tad to the right of the fret).

Playing this instrument is like being an entire string section. It's a constant stream of checks and balances. Paul put the icing on it when he said to listen to the bands center of pitch.

I think you have to start by tuning to the other instruments. If you're playing with a piano and it's flat, do you really want to stay with your tuning and compensate with your frets all night?

I always crack up when the steel player has his amp right behind his head. How can he hear the pitch of the band when all he hears is himself? Does he think every other instrument is going to magically tune to his pitch?

Ultimately Jim Bob said it all.

Absolutely If the guitar sounds in tune with the band, it is in tune. I don't care what the meter says. If it sounds out, IT IS!!!

I'd suggest playing along with a song on a cd and tweaking your strings and pedals until it sounds good. Now play along with another song from another cd and see if it still sounds good. Keep doing this until you have a good average and then write down your settings with a tuner.

I also like what Ray McCarthy said:

it is impossible to tune ET by ear (because it doesn't sound right)

Great thread.

Brett Lanier · Post by **Brett Lanier** » 4 Sep 2010 10:10 am

I like tuning to harmonics but tweaking everything "in" ever so slightly. I try to set the E's at 441.5 if I can. The newman chart sounds sharp to me. Of all the players I've heard, Tom Brumley and Paul Franklin sound the most in tune to me.

CrowBear Schmitt · Post by **CrowBear Schmitt** » 4 Sep 2010 10:16 am

if i may suggest Ian, you should learn how to tune by harmonics first
most old school steelers used a tuning fork or a pitch pipe long before them fandangled tuners came round

(i've noticed many pros tune their Es to 442 rather 440)

as for tuning by harmonics here we go :

Open/no pedals for starters - pedals & levers will follow
using harmonics on each :
on left reference tone / on right string to tune

E : string 8 fret 5 / string 4 fret 12

B : string 10 fret 5 / string 5 fret 12

F# : string 5 fret 7 / String 1 fret 12 - string
F# : string 1 fret 12 / string 7 fret 5

G# : string 8 fret 4 ( yep 4) / string 6 fret 5
G# : string 4 ( yep 4 ) / string 3 fret 5

Eb : string 5 fret 4 / string 2 fret 5

E : string 8 w: A&B fret 5 / string 6 w: A&B fret 7

A : string 6 w: A&B fret 5 / string 3 w: A&B fret 12
A : string 6 w: A&B fret 12 / string 9 fret 7

C# : string 5 w: A&B fret 12 / string 10 w: A&B fret 5
C# : string 6 w: B&C fret 4 / string 4 w: B&C fret 7
C# : string 6 w: B&C fret 4 / string 5 w: B&C fret 5

Eb : string 2 fret 12 / string 4 w lever E fret 12
Eb : string 2 fret 12 / string 8 w: lever E fret 5

B(G# lever): string 5 fret 5 / string 7 w: lever G fret 4
G# : string 3 fret 12 / string 1 w: lever G fret 12

F : string 5 w: A&B fret 4 / string 4 w: lever F fret 5
F : string 4 w: lever F fret 12 / string 8 w: lever F fret 5

Bb : string 7 fret 4 / string 5 w: lever V fret 5
Bb : string 5 w: lever V fret 12 / string 10 w: lever V fret 5

D : string 9 fret 5 / string 2 w: lever D fret 12

you can get a harmonic on the 4th fret - certainly not as easy as on frets 5,7 & 12
look for it, it's there
lever E lowers Es a half strings 4 & 8
lever F raises Es a half strings 4 & 8
lever G raises F#s a whole strings 1 & 7
lever D lowers Eb a half string 2
lever V lowers Bs a half strings 5 & 10

admin · Post by **b0b** » 4 Sep 2010 10:22 am

I tune the roots and 5ths a little bit sharp, and the 3rds and 6ths a little bit flat. This makes the harmonies on the guitar sound better than straight up ET, and it averages out to being "in tune" with keyboards and fretted instruments in a band.

Disclaimer: I am a weekend warrior, not a pro steel player. Your mileage may vary.

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 4 Sep 2010 12:14 pm

I can't say that it would or wouldn't clash with the band being tuned to ET.

Ian,
Tuning so it sounds better like the Newman numbers will actually be more in tune with ET tuned instruments than tuning straight up. I would suggest starting there and than it will come down to improving yours ears as you get better.

Ian Sutton · Post by **Ian Sutton** » 4 Sep 2010 4:45 pm

oh man, my world = rocked.

Thank you all for the helpful advice. I'm going to have to really play around with this. I play with a loud piano player who's playing a digital piano, so he's certainly in tune.

I'll be playing around with all your suggestions tomorrow. Just when you think you're a step ahead, the old steel guitar keeps you learning and life interesting.

Thanks again!

Ian

Gary Preston · Post by **Gary Preston** » 4 Sep 2010 5:07 pm

Ian so far this thread is friendly but it can get ugly real fast . Maybe folks will be more friendly with this one ! But for the record we all have our own way of tuning the steel guitar . The reasons will vary from each player as you have seen so far . Mr. Franklin has good advise as always . G.P.

Brendan Mitchell · Post by **Brendan Mitchell** » 4 Sep 2010 5:11 pm

Oh puleeeze

Bo Legg · Post by **Bo Legg** » 4 Sep 2010 5:27 pm

I twist some keys to the left and some to the right.

Jim Bob Sedgwick · Post by **Jim Bob Sedgwick** » 4 Sep 2010 8:27 pm

I don't have any keys

. Guess I'll have to move the blocks back and forth

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 4 Sep 2010 8:32 pm

Ian,
One thing you might try is playing a major scale very slowly on one string while the piano player plays a chord. You will notice how the bar in relationship to the fret markers varies quite a bit as you move up the scale. Play the same scale on a couple different strings one at a time.

When you start playing chords up the neck while being aware of each interval in your chord and making sure it sounds good on your steel (remember that if your steel doesn't sound good you have nothing) you can start to understand why steel players use a sweetened tuning and why straight up doesn't work for most all professional situations.

basilh · Post by **basilh** » 5 Sep 2010 7:03 am

Ian Sutton wrote:I play with a loud piano player who's playing a digital piano, so he's certainly in tune.

Ian

Are you sure about that ? what notes of his are in tune and related to what reference ?

Ian Sutton · Post by **Ian Sutton** » 5 Sep 2010 7:34 am

I just tuned her up using the harmonic method -- the guitar sounds pretty sweet now. I used E 442 as a reference pitch to start the process. If nothing else, the pedal action is smoother...I think the ET tuning had the raises and lowers tweaked pretty hard.

I was very surprised to hear an audible (redundant I know) improvement up and down the neck.

Great stuff everyone.

admin · Post by **b0b** » 5 Sep 2010 8:09 am

Now that you've tuned the guitar harmonically, you should measure every note with your tuning meter and write it down. That way, you will be able to get it back in tune quickly in a noisy environment.

CrowBear Schmitt · Post by **CrowBear Schmitt** » 5 Sep 2010 9:35 am

Glad to know you've done good Ian
now get hip to Capt' b0b & cop those settings

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