The Steel Guitar Forum

Posted: **18 Aug 2010 8:02 am**

Ever since the rise to fame and subsequent acceptance as "real" music and even "art" of jazz, blues and folkloric music styles and their evolutions, it has become viewed as more and more acceptable and subsequently even desirable to play "BY EAR"... like Bach, Beethoven, Mozart and so forth, could not do it, yeah, right!

I have pursued that goal for most of my musical life and efforts, except for my time with Tab (don't worry, I WILL spare the audience my comments about Tab, for this time, since it has nothing to do with the subject I wish to discuss).

But since the subject of approaches to learning to play and finding this or that chord has come up again lately on the Pedal Steel section of this forum, it became evident to me, that while I can tell people one way to look at their guitar's fret board (Maurice Anderson taught me that with his books and also on 1 on 1 lessons), many seem challenged by the same "issue" I AM STILL BATTLING MYSELF TOO:

I have never given much thought to train my ear/brain to identify (listen, hear, ID) intervals. I thought it'd come by itself. I really did. There was a time I could dedicate up to 8 hours a day playing... I thought that by HAMMERING it in, it would come. I did NOT.
I am still unsure about simple two note harmonies like minor thirds and major thirds. I can usually tell their inverted bothers and sisters, the sixth intervals from adjacent thirds but not which (min/maj) they are.
I can hear 4ths and 5ths... but don't tell them apart.
On E9th especially, IF one would KNOW what one is hearing as far as intervals... just with A&B and the E-to-Eb-lever, knowing your string groups for wide intervals (6ths) and those for narrow intervals (3rds)... it WOULD be easy to home into most anything you hear on record or in your own head... et voila, you'd be an "by ear player"... home free! Fly baby, fly!

A couple of years ago, I had no time nor space for steels and such, I dug up my little Frypan. And I decided I'd play ONLY and exclusively something I'd "hear" in my head, single note, by single note, FIRST ONLY ON ONE STRING.
My idea was, that I wanted to become able to DO what I have been able to do with my voice cords or by whistling for ALL my life.
I was AMAZED how quickly my left started to move to the exact right spots, even across wider intervals (takes longer to learn)... quite intuitively... without even thinking numbers. The desired sound intervals converted directly into visual intervals!
The next trick was to learn to jump to the next string. On a non-pedal guitar... it's a fixed tuning, you just need to memorize the intervals (fret movement equal) a jump to an adjacent string takes...
I initially battled that for a time until I change my way to look at the neck and adjacent strings:
I started to track my CURRENT position on the string I was playing on the NEXT string too. I other words, if my next higher string was tuned a minor third higher, I'd track my current position on it three frets bellow. NOW I ALWAYS have a choice: Move on the current string or move from the virtual tracking point on the other string the exact same distance.
It takes CONCENTRATION, but it works and it reminded me Jeff once putting the whole show in awe because he did a quick run of the same note again and again but moving up the neck, backing up string by string. The attendance said "whoah!"... guess what... if you can't do that, you DO NOT know your neck/tuning at all.

Still, my playing is hampered by the fact that I have a hard time ID'ing harmonies clearly.

I bought a program which is designed for just that: Teaching the brain ID'ing RELATIVE pitch.

I found this program and I am still only getting proficient at the 3rd (basic) levels in note-by-note mode (one can switch from note-by-note to harmony and later even chord): http://www.playpianotoday.com/piano-les ... -home.html
There is a FREE test version to download... I upgraded to the full version.
When I use it (daily for 5 to 10 minutes) I try NOT to concentrate so much on numbers like "second", "minor third" and so forth, but to visualize the FRETS, the movement on the steel I hear... also in intervals across stings (Eg: on 5&6 a 2nd is with the B-pedal down, a m3rd is open and a M3rds is with A&B down... OR I think in slants.) I don't want to learn it THREE times... I want my brain to become able to do what I have quickly become able to teach it on ONE string, NATURALLY, without conversions from one system into another language and yet another way to visualize! I don't think an improviser would have the time for that.

I would greatly welcome input on this subject from the GREATS who play "by ear" efficiently and exclusively. HOW do they REMEMBER that they did learn it? How do they think they are doing it TODAY.

I seem to see virtually NO emphasis on this discipline by most teachers (especially on youtube). Teachers whom I suspect DO HAVE and DO USE and build their playing on relative pitch... their ability to clearly and after practice, intuitively ID all intervals.

If somebody else has found another tool to learn this, feel free to step forward.

... J-D.

Posted: **18 Aug 2010 8:53 am**

Learning the steel parts off of recordings by ear will do it. One of the main benefits of transcribing is ear training.

Music schools all put a major focus on ear training. There are thousands of systems to use. I have used and like Bruce Arnold's:
http://www.arnoldjazz.com/

Practical and effective.

I am thinking about getting back into practicing sight singing. It really helps me bridge the gap between my ears, thinking brain and musical brain if that makes any sense.

There are also hundreds of ear training sites on the net. Just Google ear training.

Posted: **18 Aug 2010 11:05 am**

I've been playin' steel for ten years now-it'll be eleven on Christmas Day, and I taught myself to play by listening to steel parts and solos on records and I've taught myself how to play these songs by ear.

Brett

Posted: **18 Aug 2010 12:07 pm**

J D……Very nice thread which I believe poses the question………”is there a specific way to learn that which you’re now admittedly seeking, or anything else relative to learning that you or anyone else may encounter while striving to be as good as you know you can be”?

In my opinion there is NO single specific approach that works for everyone. Although written material can be helpful………….nothing eliminates the need of an experienced teacher who has the ability to recognize each persons “mental learning channel”. Identifying the perception of someone’s overall approach, recognizing and utilizing their natural tendencies, then addressing their unique realm of comprehension and logical understanding and presenting a clear direction, IS the key to success.

I'm sure the information you're looking for is somewhere out there.....but it must fit into your way of thinking, so it could be a time consuming search and I wish you the best of luck.

Posted: **18 Aug 2010 12:53 pm**

Hope this makes sense. As a youngster i learned to read playing piano amd violin. Later took up steel and played it for a living until i retired a few years ago. Sold my steel and amp.

I later bought an eight string non pedal and put the C 6th on it for something to do. Now here is the kicker. If i went back to pedals which i am not,i would not know how to set up the pedals as i played so many years using them with out thinking of what they did. Now thats what i call playing pedals by habit.
As i started before pedals became popular i did my own set up and it did any thing any other steel would do. So i never understood what difference it made what pedal set up one used, Only what one gets used to. The strings can't think so it makes no difference what the pedals are doing long as you can get what you want.

Like a great violinist,sure he can read but is playing by ear and memory when playing sols. Tracy

Posted: **18 Aug 2010 1:11 pm**

Reece Anderson wrote:J D……Very nice thread which I believe poses the question………”is there a specific way to learn that which you’re now admittedly seeking, or anything else relative to learning that you or anyone else may encounter while striving to be as good as you know you can be”?

In my opinion there is NO single specific approach that works for everyone. Although written material can be helpful………….nothing eliminates the need of an experienced teacher who has the ability to recognize each persons “mental learning channel”. Identifying the perception of someone’s overall approach, recognizing and utilizing their natural tendencies, then addressing their unique realm of comprehension and logical understanding and presenting a clear direction, IS the key to success.

I'm sure the information you're looking for is somewhere out there.....but it must fit into your way of thinking, so it could be a time consuming search and I wish you the best of luck.

Your answer raises almost as many questions as I thought I'd throw into the subject, Maurice.

I actually believe that OUR brain works pretty much the same. There are apparent differences in how well or what sectors of our subconscious and conscious parts of the brain communicate.

Our brain records and matches intervals, for everything related to music and sounds. It's a comparative processing of new data matched against existing, memorized data. Scientist say that our brain memorizes EVERYTHING in (hold you breath) PICTURES. That's why we're video junkies probably, that's maybe also why everything humanity developed is so dependent on visual control.
No way else could we recognize a NEW blues like plaid on a non-blues instrument as such (a blues lick/phrase) without even knowing the key.
Most everybody who ever was exposed to only some blues CAN do that. It so with any other music idiom.
It's ALL there in your subconscious part of the brain. Some have easy access to that part of their subconsciousness and we call them "talented", but most will have to train that communication... become conscious of what the hear.

I think that part of my thread here, is an objection too to what I seem to see happening (or NOT happening) among teachers... the often TOTAL LACK of making musical awareness an integral part of what they are trying to teach. Obviously you Maurice, has been commendable exception as you have always stressed the recognizance of intervals.

Jerry Byrd once wrote about his early times on the instrument, that he could just listen to "them" (steel guitarists he was listening to) and just "see" what they were doing. Obviously, JB was a very talented man, which converted him into a noted artist very quickly. Still, we all know, even JB practiced, so did BE (we all read about that!) and well, I know you too, Maurice.
The question is, how did you, BE, JB, PF... ALL the musically successful start, how did you/they develop their ear, their consciousness? You DO "see" the intervals you are hearing, don't you? You don't go try-hunting for them on the neck?

One poster said that practice... from the old say "practice makes perfect"... Again, I think it was you Maurice, who perfected the say: "Only perfect practice makes perfect"! Right on, and I'd even say one can turn that around and say that, you get perfect at what you practice. And if it's only to execute music off a sheet of paper with... well, let me try and keep my promise!

... J-D.

Posted: **18 Aug 2010 2:56 pm**

J D…..Mental visualization is without question an advantage when playing steel guitar, and to accomplish it requires a complete organizational plan based on logic.

In response to your question, yes….I visualize everything I play as interval related. I hear things in my mind, and immediately “see” it on my fretboard……. before I play it. I believe you will find the top players of today can quickly recreate on their guitar that which they hear, either audibly, or in their head.

There are many components to learning how to visualize and ultimately hear interval distances.

To identify two of the most important……

1. Learn to use “tracker” association on the fretboard so as to visually reinforce the “sound” of distance.

2. The “trackers” must be integrated into an organization format so as to identify harmonic relationship relative to intervals.

I still believe only “perfect practice makes perfect”. Being “perfect at what you practice” can only be valid if one’s practice is perfect relative to an organizational plan.

I greatly appreciate your very intelligent and insightful comments.

Posted: **18 Aug 2010 3:22 pm**

Practice til you get it right, then keep on practicing til you can't get it wrong.

Posted: **18 Aug 2010 4:18 pm**

Another trick is to sit at the steel and sing a phrase. Then look at the steel and visualize exactly how you would play it. Then play it straight away with no noodling around. The main thing is to not play a thing until you can hear it in your head and see it on the neck. No fishing for notes or playing licks your hands like ! Start with "three blind mice". If you really get three blind mice down cold you will be able to visualize all sorts of licks.

Posted: **18 Aug 2010 5:24 pm**

While Beethoven could most certainly improvise with the best of them (according to MANY written accounts) and was mostly deaf when he wrote his 5th piano concerto, and completely deaf when he wrote the greatest piece of music ever, does it count to say he could do anything "by ear" since he couldn't hear anything with his ears?

Posted: **18 Aug 2010 5:28 pm**

I learned to hear intervals by playing them on six-string guitar. I played parallel thirds and parallel sixths (what some people here on The Forum call "harmonized scales" -- a million times, both as exercises and as a way to improvise lead. It is easy to see the intervals played on two strings on regular guitar because there are no pedals so you can see how many frets there are between the two notes. On pedal steel you can't see it, so you either have to hear it or figure it out mathematically.

But one thing confused me about what you are doing, JD: Are you trying to learn to imitate famous pedal steel solos by ear, or are you trying to improvise your own solos by following the sounds that your musical imagination suggests to you? The former seems quite hard to me because there are so many ways to play any given thing on pedal steel, even ignoring for a moment the variation in tunings and copedants. For example, we can get a major third on strings 1 and 2, or 3 and 4, or 4 and 5, or 5 and 7, or 6 and 8, etc, etc. So when I hear a major third I recognize it as a major third, but I have little idea which strings and pulls are being used. But when I am improvising and my imagination wants to hear a major third, I know exactly how to get it in real time.

A music teacher once taught me to sing the scale in between the two notes to figure out how many steps of the scale separate them. This also helps when trying to hear chord changes -- sing the root of the first chord, then sing up (or down) the scale to the root of the next chord, then you should know how far apart they are.

Thanks for this thread, JD. What excites me most about The Forum is when we all talk about how to play pedal steel. I'm not into building or fixing or buying or selling them -- I just want to get better at PLAYING it. So this is a great thread that has got a lot of us thinking...

Posted: **18 Aug 2010 6:26 pm**

After reading your comments about "the blues" on the Pedal Forum, I was hoping you would be one to pick up on this thread, Barry.

My aim is to be able to play anything I want to play. Whether it comes from my imagination or still rings in my head from memory, does not seem to make much of a difference, except for the fact that I have come to conclude that I have a harder time to find ways to play music I don't like and that it makes no sense for me to try not just to learn a song, but to imitate it as XYZ big shot plaid it. I feel differently, I am a different person, I am entitled to play it my way... even if the difference is minimal.

Most greats have started to "copy" from predecessors in their particular field. Was it from the sound heard off a record or the radio or from the memory of it... it ALL goes thru the head.
I therefor believe that a person who lost it's hearing, may still be able to "hear" or "play" music in their head. But that's an entirely different subject.

What I have decided is, that I want to train my "ear" (it's the brain actually) to ID intervals, first as note successions, then also as harmonies in such a way that I assimilate the perceived distance as visual distance. Because, that's what we SEE on our fret board. That's what you see at the root of key board keys (it all becomes equal chromatic intervals).

I have proven myself that I can do that, by playing what I "heard" (virtually heard in my head) and playing it up and down the neck on ONE string.
I have experimented with several ways on how to subsequently add other strings (as shortcuts) to that play. The one method which worked the best, was as described, to TRACK my current playing position on lets say the 4th string on the 3rd string too... virtually. So, when the time comes to jump over to the next string, I could do the same I was doing on the original string on the next... just move from where I "virtually" was.

I don't know, Maurice, if that's what you alluded to with the "TRACKER" or if it referred to a root tracker to move thru progressions (btw, thanks again for YOUR input!)?

Anyways, so far so good. The nut I have not yet cracked is to find me a method to positively and quickly ID two note HARMONIES when I hear them (again, whether I hear them plaid by XYZ or I hear them inside me). I can stop and analyze and try to sing/hum both notes and then, treat them as the earlier discussed note successions... but, that is NOT what I want to PRACTICE because that's not what I want my brain to rely on. I want to teach that head (and believe me, many have given up to teach THAT head something

) to ID two note harmonies at ONCE and see the too as visual intervals.

I KNOW where to find or how to create these intervals on a steel. That is NOT the problem.
I may not know ALL positions with all lever and pedal combinations, but I feel confident I know the most common. To the contrary as you Barry mention, I DO "SEE" the across the strings intervals, I know what the pedals and levers do... I "see" the "distorting" of the intervals in other intervals... probably because I am used to non-pedal steels and know my slants.

Anyways. This thread is not just about ME.
I wanted to raise awareness about the fact that I feel that there is NOT enough emphasis put on LISTENING and actual gaining awareness what many try to play or learn to play as well as a lack of stressing that very issue on part of the "teachers".

I have witnessed students open a new book and just start to execute a new song without having listened to it to such an extent to allow them gain the ability to hum even only the base melody.
I think this is mindbogglingly wrong and an ill fated approach. Talk about becoming perfect at what one practices!
I have seen "teachers" start a session with; "let me show you this lick... it starts on fret 8 with pedals down... blah, blah, blah..." THAT has NO universally applicable and repeatable musical value whatsoever! The student may walk away able to imitate a lick at starting at fret 8 but so what?
If you'd teach physics that way, people would still be surprised they'd fall when they stepped out of an airplane in mid air after they graduated science!
And music is physics. If it wasn't you couldn't play the same song in all 12 keys.

... J-D.

Posted: **18 Aug 2010 8:19 pm**

I can tell you for certain that those who have learned to play any instrument by ear can wing it much easier and more complete than some one who has to have a book in front of him or her. I have played for more than 50 years with other musicians and I can pick out in an instant the guy who has learned by ear and the guy who has learned by sight and note reading.

Most long time music reading musicians will get lost when improvising (they won't admit it of course) or has to just jump in unexpectedly at the band leaders nod. The guy who has learned by ear has spent his life playing around with the strings, valves, reeds or whatever.

Classical stuff, I would want a note reader behind me. To do a live gig where you have no idea what's going to be thrown at you, I would want a learned by ear musician. To do a rehearsed show where everything has been practiced and set in stone, I think I'd want someone who understands the concepts of music beside me.

Posted: **18 Aug 2010 8:47 pm**

I learned note intervals in early elementary school studying classical piano. Interval and ear training was a big part of every lesson, my teacher was obsessive about it. Thank you, Elizabeth Comeau from Medway, Mass.

She also insisted that I read music fluently, and by the age of 10 or 11, I could. When I switched to playing blues guitar at 14 or so, I found myself reading less and less but playing by ear more and more, and it translated easily. Not surprisingly, my ear got better and my reading skill got worse. But I think if I was willing to invest a reasonable chunk of time, I could bring the reading skills back. But I think without that early understanding, it would be tougher.

I think a big part of what made developing these skills (relatively) easy early is that the intervals on piano are strictly linear - by that, I mean that the geometric relationship between the notes on the keyboard and the interval width is linear. The identical geometric pattern of keyboard notes in repeating octaves is another thing that can be mentally imaged. A guitar is piecewise linear - linear on a single string but effectively nonlinear as a whole. Any mathematician will confirm that linear is much less complex to deal with than nonlinear at a lot of levels. But guitar at least has linear interval patterns (5 half-tones) across the strings except for between the 2nd and 3rd string, which is different. But pedal steel is much more complex, IMO. Everything has to be memorized specifically for each tuning.

I think this is also true for reading - if I had time to spend a year or two focusing on bringing my reading chops back to a reasonable level, I'd start with piano and then make the transition to guitar and steel. I still have no problem sight-singing single notes on a staff, but more complex stuff with a lot of notes throws me, especially when dealing with guitar or steel. So if I were having issues with interval recognition, I'd focus on singly-played and concurrently-played two-note first and then move to simple chords and then more complex ones. I don't think it's so hard to learn how to immediately hear two-note intervals, a bit more to immediately recognize simple chords like triads and 7th chords, but significantly more to quickly recognize very complex voicings with lots of altered notes.

So I think you are probably making a good move with your software, which is piano-based. I think doing this on piano for simple two-note intervals first gets everything else out of the way and allows one to focus on the simplest mental image of notes and intervals possible.

I also agree with Bob H. to play intervals, melodies, and chords and sing along with everything imaginable to try to reinforce those types of mental images. Even though I haven't played keys seriously since the 60s, that mental model of the physical keyboard, the mathematical relationships between intervals and chords, and the physical relationship to acoustic notes underpins my mental associations of 12-tone music and its sounds.

Funny you should mention physics - my educational background is physics, math, electrical engineering, and computer science. I think all that helped - notes and intervals have a strong mathematical and physical basis which can all be brought to bear on this - for me, it all goes together in a mental model of music. With my sight-reading skill at the generally low state it's in, I think I'd have a harder time without that mathematical and intuitive ear-based understanding. I know some people think that reading and ears don't go together, but I don't agree - I really wish I could sit for a year or two and just shed all of this with no distractions.

Just my take, YMMV, and all that.

Posted: **19 Aug 2010 5:48 am**

It sure is nice to be part of such an intelligent and interesting discussion! Thanks guys! I'm off to teach a fifty year-old woman how to play hand drums. Then off to visit a friend in the hospital with late stage cancer. Then to the guitar repair shop for some electrical repairs. If I wasn't so busy I'd sit here typing all day!

Posted: **19 Aug 2010 6:47 am**

Dave Mudgett wrote:I learned note intervals in early elementary school studying classical piano. Interval and ear training was a big part of every lesson, my teacher was obsessive about it. Thank you, Elizabeth Comeau from Medway, Mass.

...

How did the lovely Mrs. Elizabeth Comeau from Medway, Massachusetts teach you to learn to "hear" (ID) intervals?
How did you do it? Did you assign colors, did you look out for "beats", did/do you quickly create a triad in your head to ID maj/min, did you just get it by abrasion (did she use a whip on you?

).

I can ID two SUCCESSIVE note in -2nd, 2nd, -3rd and M3rd with quite good certainty.

I hear the dissoncance of the -2nd (half step)
I kind'a naturally guess the 2nd (full step)
I hear the pickup notes of a blues song when I hear a -3rd.
I automatically hear a ghost 5th to complete a major triad when confronted with a M3rd interval.

I'd like to train this until the "conversion" thinking (Eg: adding a 5th to complete the Major triad) is eradicated, because I believe that's the way it should be and secondly, how could one get quick at it while doing brain stunts at the same time?

What is NOT working yet to my satisfaction at all, is ID'ing intervals of two notes plaid simultaneously in harmony. I literally have to dissect them apart in my head and do the melody ID routine described above... usually the song is over before I can agree with myself on the first harmony... well, not quite, but you get the picture; NOT QUITE THERE YET!

... J-D.

Posted: **19 Aug 2010 7:11 am**

JD,
The Bruce Arnold system helps train your ear to recognize intervals within a tonal center/simple chord progression. Rather than picking them out of thin air. Think about the second part of chopsticks. Its decending 3rds. m3-M3-M3-m3-m3-M3. If you can hear where the 3rd interval is within the chord/key you will know if its major or minor. After a bit it can become second nature to identify them.

Not every system works for everybody. Keep looking into different methods and I'm sure you will find something.

I have quite a bit of work to do with ear training myself. I'm having a hard time with jazz chord progressions. Its coming but its coming slow.

Posted: **19 Aug 2010 7:44 am**

Les Anderson wrote:I
Most long time music reading musicians will get lost when improvising (they won't admit it of course) or has to just jump in unexpectedly at the band leaders nod. The guy who has learned by ear has spent his life playing around with the strings, valves, reeds or whatever.

I think that playing, and learning, by ear is a great thing, and crucial to being a good improviser. However, why do people believe that somehow your ears turn off when you read music? I have good ears, and can easily play jazz gigs without music, but am also able to do gigs where I read music, and can improvise just fine over unfamiliar tunes which I would have a hard time playing if I didn't read them - they might have particular arrangements, or an unusual set of substitutions or modulations that would make playing them, in real time, on stage, by ear very difficult, if not impossible. Furthermore, if properly followed, the charts can help to insure you don't get lost - anyone who's reading and gets lost isn't reading well when that happens. I'm a long time reading musician, and I rarely get lost (and no, I'm not just refusing to admit it!). There isn't a musician who has never gotten lost, with or without charts, in my opinion.

If I had to pick ONE way to play and learn, it would be an ear-based method, but why would anyone choose to ignore reading music and training oneself in music theory, when the combination of ears and musical training makes for a complete musician who is poised to grow in any direction.

I think this thread is important - mainly because I think your method of working on intervals indicates a desire for "cluefullness" as opposed to "cluelessness". Having an organic understanding of how music relates to the instrument, instead of learning 500 licks from tablature, will certainly pay off, and I applaud your efforts, and the discussion you've started here.

Posted: **19 Aug 2010 7:45 am**

JD,you said you would spare us another rant about Tab.Are you talking about Tab Hunter the 60s B movie icon and king of the romantic comedy movies?I,m pretty sure he did not play steel guitar but I will do some research and make sure.I,m sorry you have taken such a dislike for him.On the subject at hand,the ear training.I am working with kids and adults on 3 or 4 instruments and I find I,m writing down less and less and making them listen more and more.It seems they are learning faster and rememebering stuff better.Hearing intervals seems to be a key element.Before someone blast me,I don,t pretend to be in a class with the likes of Mr.Anderson or some of the other music theory gurus on the forum.We are receiving a wealth of info from these guys.I wish I could have had it when I was younger.Sorry to get off subject a bit. thanks lakeshrk

Posted: **19 Aug 2010 7:47 am**

JD, that was a long, long time ago, but recollections are still pretty solid - we did this slowly over a very long period of time. There were at least three levels of ear training.

One was to understand the intervals of simple chords. Starting out in the key of C, I remember playing and singing, over and over, 1-to-maj3, maj3-to-5, 1-to-5, major triad, 1-to-min3, minor triad - all played consecutively and then moving on to concurrent playing. She wanted me to clearly understand the makeup of simple triads in C before moving on to other keys.

Second, there were of course scale drills, again starting in the key of C before moving onto other keys. I played and sang scales constantly. As part of this, there was constant focus on all the diatonic intervals - again, consecutively playing and singing 2nd, min3rd, maj3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, maj7th intervals in the key of C over and over again over a long period of time until I just knew how they felt. No 'colors' or other mental imagery - I intellectually knew where they were on the piano, I could image them there, the mathematical relationship and geometric pattern couldn't have been simpler - just consecutive white notes on the keyboard.

This was all drilled and drilled until I could do it before moving onto other keys - we're talking 8-9 years old. So then we moved keys around the circle of 4ths/5ths and she picked pieces to go with that. By this time, I could hear when I made a mistake playing scales and intervals in other keys. I had to learn the white/black key patterns, but I could definitely hear what was right and what wasn't. She had a wooden ruler that she rapped in time to the metronome (that was always on doing these drills), and when I made a mistake, she would rap it close to but not on my hand to remind me - but pretty soon that was pointless because I could hear when I made mistakes. That was what she went for - when she could hear me make a mistake and immediately correct it, she relaxed. She was tough but simply passionate about music.

So it was a several pronged approach. I practiced every day - my mom saw to that - and had a lesson once a week for years, public recitals a few times a year, and the Piano Teachers' Guild examinations once a year - there were theory and performance sections to that. They took it seriously and so did we. I was also lucky growing up in the Boston area, where I think music and arts training was generally good - everybody studied music every year throughout elementary school, and for a year or two at least, everyone had to go out and buy a recorder (those little plastic flute-like things) and learn to play basic scales and songs on it. Everything I did in piano lessons was reinforced in music classes all through school.

Interestingly, almost all of that training was just diatonic intervals - I guess the exception was b7, since my teacher liked gospel and boogie-woogie music and dom7 chords were pretty common. But that was just for fun.

After long years of this, I was ready for something different after I saw bands people and bands like Taj Mahal, the Butterfield Blues Band, Electric Flag, and the Byrds (with Clarence) in the late 60s, and I threw it over and started playing (mostly) blues guitar strictly by ear. There were obviously things missing from my ear training, and I just listened and figured out where it was on the guitar. But I implicitly knew the relationship between those notes on the piano. The reason I didn't just move blues to piano was that the stuff that really moved me - the bent blue-note figures - just wasn't on the rigidly 12-tone piano the way I wanted to hear it - I tried initially but got frustrated. But I still think knowing that made a big difference.

I have quite a bit of work to do with ear training myself. I'm having a hard time with jazz chord progressions. Its coming but its coming slow.

Agreed, this is tougher. I'm focusing mainly on jazz guitar right now - I've taken several-months-at-a-time intervals over the last 25 years to focus on that, and I really do love jazz guitar. It's in a whole 'nother realm of complexity and difficulty. Hearing complex and altered chord voicings immediately and understanding complex jazz progressions is harder, for me at least. I feel that I need to get more solid on this before I attempt to seriously translate that to pedal steel.

Posted: **19 Aug 2010 8:36 am**

Jerry Tillman wrote:JD,you said you would spare us another rant about Tab... yada yada yada... lakeshrk

Jerry, don't you turn on me now. I am not that far!
Now behave, there are adults trying to have a civilized discussion here! So, go fishin' or blow a D-130 or what ever you do when you have one of your moments or I'll have to call one of your ex wifes on'ya!

Naw, I KNOW you got a good ear, I heard you play, man!

... J-D.

Now that this is settled (sorry for the interruption!) lets proceed

:

Dave Mudgett wrote:JD, that was a long, long time ago, but recollections are still pretty solid - we did this slowly over a very long period of time. There were at least three levels of ear training.

One was to understand the intervals of simple chords. Starting out in the key of C, I remember playing and singing, over and over, 1-to-maj3, maj3-to-5, 1-to-5, major triad, 1-to-min3, minor triad - all played consecutively and then moving on to concurrent playing. She wanted me to clearly understand the makeup of simple triads in C before moving on to other keys.

Interesting, she had you do it the "other" way around: by singing or playing intervals she asked you for?

Like learning to read (letters) by teaching how the student to write instead. Makes sense! A Two'fer one!

Christopher Woitach wrote:
Les Anderson wrote:I
Most long time music reading musicians will get lost when improvising (they won't admit it of course) or has to just jump in unexpectedly at the band leaders nod. The guy who has learned by ear has spent his life playing around with the strings, valves, reeds or whatever.
I think that playing, and learning, by ear is a great thing, and crucial to being a good improviser. However, why do people believe that somehow your ears turn off when you read music? I have good ears, and can easily play jazz gigs without music, but am also able to do gigs where I read music, and can improvise just fine over unfamiliar tunes which I would have a hard time playing if I didn't read them - they might have particular arrangements, or an unusual set of substitutions or modulations that would make playing them, in real time, on stage, by ear very difficult, if not impossible. Furthermore, if properly followed, the charts can help to insure you don't get lost - anyone who's reading and gets lost isn't reading well when that happens. I'm a long time reading musician, and I rarely get lost (and no, I'm not just refusing to admit it!). There isn't a musician who has never gotten lost, with or without charts, in my opinion.

I think it depends a LOT on HOW and WHY you learn to read music: If you just learn to sight play from a sheet to keys... like a typist secretary would from the scribbles of the director... I doubt that this would automatically lead to a trained "ear".
However, if one has learned to sight-sing (Francis Albert could, I was told?)... the brain, the body becomes the instrument and the "virtual" ear inside probably can't help but "get" the training.

Christopher Woitach wrote:...I applaud your efforts, and the discussion you've started here.

Well thank you, I applaud your input! ... J-D.

Posted: **19 Aug 2010 9:22 am**

Interesting, she had you do it the "other" way around: by singing or playing intervals she asked you for?... Like learning to read (letters) by teaching how the student to write instead. Makes sense! A Two'fer one!

Actually, she did all this stuff together so that learning intervals was not purely a rote exercise. She wanted me to understand why intervals were important right from the get-go. But this didn't mean there wasn't a lot of drill - we drilled plenty - playing and singing scales, playing and singing intervals, breaking up chords into intervals and playing/singing the arpeggios that went with them, interval and chord recognition, learning pieces in various keys and breaking out various things and seeing how they fit into interval and scale patterns - starting with the simple and getting gradually more complex as we went on.

FWIW, I try to teach math and other scientific subjects the same way now. When you learn formal logic, you need to understand the logical symbols, make truth tables, see logical equivalences, analyze and create logical arguments, and so on. But if students don't see how it's applied as they're learning that structure, it becomes purely abstract and rote.

So to go to your analogy about letters and writing - of course a student learning to read and write needs to know letters and ultimately words, but knowing the letters and even words is not sufficient to read or write. I think it's better to do it all at once - by all means, learn the most basic things but then apply them immediately - don't wait till all the theoretical constructs are at hand to begin to figure out how to use them. Use them immediately and gradually build the full structure.

It's surprising to me that there's still discussion in educational communities about this, but there is. Some teachers still insist that one needs to memorize all the notation and theoretical concepts inherent in a field before applying them. I completely disagree.

Posted: **19 Aug 2010 9:34 am**

Chris Forbes wrote:While Beethoven could most certainly improvise with the best of them (according to MANY written accounts) and was mostly deaf when he wrote his 5th piano concerto, and completely deaf when he wrote the greatest piece of music ever, does it count to say he could do anything "by ear" since he couldn't hear anything with his ears?

(emphasis added)

You refer, of course, to the piano sonata Op. 111. (Just funnin' witcha--but I'm serious!)

As to your conundrum--if Beethoven had been born deaf, certainly not. But...

Posted: **19 Aug 2010 9:44 am**

Dave Mudgett wrote:
...
It's surprising to me that there's still discussion in educational communities about this, but there is. Some teachers still insist that one needs to memorize all the notation and theoretical concepts inherent in a field before applying them. I completely disagree.

I agree with your disagreement.

I have a question (well, really?):

minor thirds / Major thirds.

If you play them I, III it's a third.
But if you play them III, I, while it's the same notes just inverted, the interval is a 6th, right?
So, the inversion to a minor 3rd becomes a Major 6th and likewise, the inversion to a Major 3rd becomes a minor 6th, still right?

Now the question (if all the above passes the test):
As WHAT do you hear them (the 6ths)? As 3rds with the root on top or as a separate sound of intervals... the 6ths?

The ear training software I presently use, sometimes plays intervals from top to bottom... EG: I have to call a minor third after I hear first a C and then an A successively. It's harder. I get them by mentally (silently) let them ring in the "normal" order for now... but I don't like it because I do not want to become reliant on self invented crutches.

... J-D.

Posted: **19 Aug 2010 10:29 am**

JD,

Since this topic is "Learning To Play By Ear" I can tell you exactly what your problem is. Lots of the replies here, have very little or nothing at all to do with learning to play by ear.

Nearly every reply I've read here has more to do with Theory and, when playing BY EAR, Theory doesn't even enter into it AT ALL. Absolutely Zilch.

I've said many times, that I wasn't interested (at all) in how any cord was formed (meaning what notes it took to make up the cord) Etc.

But what I did know was where those sounds I was hearing could be gotten on the neck of my steel, with the right combinations of pedals, knees, etc.

This could be a long, long discussion, but the one thing that doesn't come into "Absolutely learning to Play By Ear, or playing by ear" isn't ANY FORM of Theory whatsoever. Or! had it been, I'd never have played any instrument. (At that time)

Believe this or not, I only within the last couple of years, started taking up music theory, and that was to see what it was I had been playing for all those years. Now, theory to me, is something that I still don't ever let come into any playing I do, whether it be lead, fiddle or pedal steel.

Now! I'm not saying that learning theory is wrong from the start. Not at all. But regardless, when one Finally comes to know where the sounds are on whatever instrument it is that they are playing, then the theory will stay at home, as they'll ALL be playing by ear and what they're hearing (in their head) at the time.

I honestly believe that had I known theory at the time of my playing, it would have hurt me more than helped. To this very day, even knowing theory or a good portion of it, it never comes into any portion of my playing. It's good for composers and arrangers but as far as actual playing goes it's of no help at all to me.

I believe people aren't reading the Topic before posting some of the replies I've read here.

Yes, I knew cord progression, but still only by name, but I didn't know much of anything else at all.

So! My point is this: Study your Instrument, and find out where the sounds you are hearing are located on your instrument, and you'll THEN be playing By Ear. Until then, you nor anyone else will ever play by ear.

Sure it takes time, tons of time. But in the end, you'll be good at what you do. How can anyone be good if they are thinking in terms of theory or intervals, while they are Actually Performing?

Knowing your instrument is the only theory needed, if you REALLY want to Play By Ear. And listen to what's being played for the notes or cord you want. I say that, because I don't know any other way that a true musician, can perform a song they've never heard before on the spot. And all of the theory in the world, will not allow them to do it either.

So yes! I play (still) Strickly By Ear. Theory is good, as it can show you how to construct cords, etc. But again, it's of no value for Ear Playing whatsoever.

Just my own personal observation and thoughts on it after many, many years of dedication to my music learning...... And, even playing by ear, is a never ending process of putting together bits and pieces of some very complex runs, etc. So figuring them out is all a huge part of it.

Maybe it's bad advice, but I'd say to stop with all the theory and intervals, and start listening to your steel and hunting things down. Then once in your head, they stay there, unless you get old like me, and start forgetting things.......

The Steel Guitar Forum

Learning to play by ear: Listening, recognizing, visualizing

Learning to play by ear: Listening, recognizing, visualizing

Re:

Tab

Learning to Play by Ear